Toki987
Rock Steady
littledog said:
I saturated all the hammer felts on mine with a mix of 50/50 water and elmers glue. After they dried it had a great tone.
I saturated all the hammer felts on mine with a mix of 50/50 water and elmers glue. After they dried it had a great tone.
Dom Franco
New member
Ok here's my 2 cents (Pun intended)
JUST DO IT!
I bought a used piano for 75 bucks.... pretty badly out of tune but I play pedal steel guitar ( 10 strings, 3 pedals and four knee levers) and I had learned about "tempered tuning" and compromize.
1st thing is get the proper tool, its a wooden handle thingy with a square socket end.
The middle two octaves on either side of middle "C" Just tune directly to your chromatic guitar tuner at 440 cps=A.
That's the easy part.... now you have to have a good ear to do the rest.
I tuned the higher octaves slightly flat by the tuner, but they sound perfectly in tune with the middle octaves. You just play a D chord (For example D F# A in the middle then one octave higher and make it sound good.... I had no problem it sounded great though it took several hours to get it all right.
The low strings were mostly ok and they didn't need much tuning.
It can be fun and save you lot's of money
Sincerely;
Dom Franco
JUST DO IT!
I bought a used piano for 75 bucks.... pretty badly out of tune but I play pedal steel guitar ( 10 strings, 3 pedals and four knee levers) and I had learned about "tempered tuning" and compromize.
1st thing is get the proper tool, its a wooden handle thingy with a square socket end.
The middle two octaves on either side of middle "C" Just tune directly to your chromatic guitar tuner at 440 cps=A.
That's the easy part.... now you have to have a good ear to do the rest.
I tuned the higher octaves slightly flat by the tuner, but they sound perfectly in tune with the middle octaves. You just play a D chord (For example D F# A in the middle then one octave higher and make it sound good.... I had no problem it sounded great though it took several hours to get it all right.
The low strings were mostly ok and they didn't need much tuning.
It can be fun and save you lot's of money
Sincerely;
Dom Franco
T
Tonemaster
New member
Tunemaster
It is possible to do a better than bad job by yourself with an electronic tuner,but sadly any musician will cringe if you are doing more than training the cat to sing.I had reasonable success but if you have a piano worth the trouble (and wish to play beautifully) you are bound to get in one of those guys who know what they are doing - otherwise you are a ditchdigger attempting brain surgery.You can make bad music with good tuning but it is difficult to make good music with bad intonation
It is possible to do a better than bad job by yourself with an electronic tuner,but sadly any musician will cringe if you are doing more than training the cat to sing.I had reasonable success but if you have a piano worth the trouble (and wish to play beautifully) you are bound to get in one of those guys who know what they are doing - otherwise you are a ditchdigger attempting brain surgery.You can make bad music with good tuning but it is difficult to make good music with bad intonation
Tom Hicks
Well-known member
For those who must try...
Here is a piano tuning software
http://tom.artistcollaboration.com/tl.exe
Go to the Steinway site and download thier stretch-tuning chart and input the offsets into the software.
Here is a piano tuning software
http://tom.artistcollaboration.com/tl.exe
Go to the Steinway site and download thier stretch-tuning chart and input the offsets into the software.
B
Bigus Dickus
New member
On a semi-related note, a question for Michael or littledog or others with grands...
I have two or strings in the second octave above middle C that go out of tune more quicly than the rest of the piano, but only one string of each note. The guy that tunes my piano said there was likely a kink or other anomaly in those strings that made them difficult to tune. I suppose it could also be an issue with a pin as well.
He gave me three options: (1) live with those notes until I couldn't stand it and had to get the whole thing tuned (which in my case is about six months... the last two of which it's getting "bad" to me, though no one else seems to be able to hear a problem) (2) replace the offensive strings, and check any pin or other related issues (3) get a tuning tool and adjust just those strings between tunings to help prolong my sanity.
The question is what my chance of success would be in keeping those two or three strings in check between tunings? I have a great ear, and have played many instruments, but I've never tuned anything other than brass or drums. What kind of trouble am I asking for?
I have two or strings in the second octave above middle C that go out of tune more quicly than the rest of the piano, but only one string of each note. The guy that tunes my piano said there was likely a kink or other anomaly in those strings that made them difficult to tune. I suppose it could also be an issue with a pin as well.
He gave me three options: (1) live with those notes until I couldn't stand it and had to get the whole thing tuned (which in my case is about six months... the last two of which it's getting "bad" to me, though no one else seems to be able to hear a problem) (2) replace the offensive strings, and check any pin or other related issues (3) get a tuning tool and adjust just those strings between tunings to help prolong my sanity.
The question is what my chance of success would be in keeping those two or three strings in check between tunings? I have a great ear, and have played many instruments, but I've never tuned anything other than brass or drums
. What kind of trouble am I asking for?
L
littledog
New member
Richard-the-Large:
It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a tuning hammer and a rubber mute or two to touch up unisons that go out of tune, even on a non-problem piano.
But if the problem is persistent and annoying, which it sounds like it is, it's not a big deal for a piano technician to replace a couple of strings, although it might be a good idea to order your tuning hammer before you do this, since a newly installed string will need constant touching up for a while.
A slipping pin can be corrected by either replacing it with a slightly larger one, or by tapping the current pin slightly deeper into the pinblock. DO NOT TRY THIS YOURSELF. This is a job only for a pro, unless you don't care about your piano or the cost of replacing the entire pinblock.
One thing to remember is when a string is replaced in that octave, you are really replacing two strings, since each string folds back and becomes the adjacent string as well.
It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a tuning hammer and a rubber mute or two to touch up unisons that go out of tune, even on a non-problem piano.
But if the problem is persistent and annoying, which it sounds like it is, it's not a big deal for a piano technician to replace a couple of strings, although it might be a good idea to order your tuning hammer before you do this, since a newly installed string will need constant touching up for a while.
A slipping pin can be corrected by either replacing it with a slightly larger one, or by tapping the current pin slightly deeper into the pinblock. DO NOT TRY THIS YOURSELF. This is a job only for a pro, unless you don't care about your piano or the cost of replacing the entire pinblock.
One thing to remember is when a string is replaced in that octave, you are really replacing two strings, since each string folds back and becomes the adjacent string as well.
B
Bigus Dickus
New member
Kind of my thoughts littledog. At some point, I'll just have the strings replaced. There doesn't seem to be a problem with a slipping pin, but that we probably wouldn't know for sure until the string is removed.
lol, even though my degrees were in Mechanical Engineering, I wouldn't dream of trying to deepen the tap in the pin block, unless I had someone that really knew what they were doing instruct me for my specific piano. You never know what kinds of unknown problems you'll get into that way... I've learned that musical instruments are as much (or more) a work of art as they are a piece of engineering. The rules that apply to my work don't always apply to things like pianos.
On an OT note... why the hell do the upper octaves share strings between notes? Why don't they have one string loop back to cover the first two of the three strings for that note, and a single string that terminates at the back pin for the third string? I've watched my piano being tuned multiple times, and that always seems to be a royal pain. You get one note in tune with itself, and then when working on the adjacent note you can pull that shared string out of tune on the one you just finished.
Maybe my piano is just a POS... lol.
lol, even though my degrees were in Mechanical Engineering, I wouldn't dream of trying to deepen the tap in the pin block, unless I had someone that really knew what they were doing instruct me for my specific piano. You never know what kinds of unknown problems you'll get into that way... I've learned that musical instruments are as much (or more) a work of art as they are a piece of engineering. The rules that apply to my work don't always apply to things like pianos.
On an OT note... why the hell do the upper octaves share strings between notes? Why don't they have one string loop back to cover the first two of the three strings for that note, and a single string that terminates at the back pin for the third string? I've watched my piano being tuned multiple times, and that always seems to be a royal pain. You get one note in tune with itself, and then when working on the adjacent note you can pull that shared string out of tune on the one you just finished.
Maybe my piano is just a POS... lol.
L
littledog
New member
Bigus Dickus said:
On an OT note... why the hell do the upper octaves share strings between notes? Why don't they have one string loop back to cover the first two of the three strings for that note, and a single string that terminates at the back pin for the third string? I've watched my piano being tuned multiple times, and that always seems to be a royal pain. You get one note in tune with itself, and then when working on the adjacent note you can pull that shared string out of tune on the one you just finished.
Maybe my piano is just a POS... lol.
The reason why is because this way you can use the same piano wire for every note, and cut it to the length you need.
Are you SURE one note goes out of tune when tuning an adjacent note with a shared string? Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should this happen. I am beginning to suspect that you need to explore finding a different piano technician.The more likely explaination is he/she is not "setting" the pin correctly while tuning. That would cause it to slip back out of tune while coincidently working on the adjacent note - but not because it had a shared string. (For instance, you bring a string into tune from slightly above, not slightly below pitch).
The fact that your technician can't tell you the cause of your "problem notes" slipping out of tune also makes me wonder a bit about their competence. If a pin is chronically slipping, usually you can notice the difference in the "feel" while tuning. It will tend to "jump" from one position to another as you rotate it.
B
Bigus Dickus
New member
Thanks for the advice. I think the next time I have it tuned I'll try someone else. Not that I've been dissapointed with the sound after tunings from the current guy, but it never hurts to have a second opinion I suppose. Not bad advice at all.
Dom Franco
New member
It's easy to tune just a few strings!
Just match the pitch of the offending strings to the ajacent ones that are in tune. (most likely there will be at least one of them still in tune).
You will hear a warble vibrating sound that increases or decreases in frequency as you move closer or farther away from unison. When they sound identical you've got it!
This is similar to what mandolin or 12 string guitar tuning involves.
(Making two strings vibrate in unison)
Dom
Just match the pitch of the offending strings to the ajacent ones that are in tune. (most likely there will be at least one of them still in tune).
You will hear a warble vibrating sound that increases or decreases in frequency as you move closer or farther away from unison. When they sound identical you've got it!
This is similar to what mandolin or 12 string guitar tuning involves.
(Making two strings vibrate in unison)
Dom
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
OK.....I'm a piano tuner. Been doing it for 25 years and I currently tune 3-5 pianos a day five days a week, sometimes more. I have about 2500 churches on my account list and probably another 800 individuals. I probably tune around 1000 pianos a year plus all the repair stuff.
A quick response to the things I remember from the previous posts.
1. You pull the upper octaves sharp according to a electronic tuner, not flat. It's called even-tempered tuning and the amount of sharpness needed varies. I've seen pianos that didn't need to be stretched much but I've seen others that needed to be stretched as much as 1/4 step by the time you got all the way up.
2. You don't pull an adjacent string out of tune when tuning the next note that uses the same string. They do not slide around the hitch pin. I do this all day long every day and I can say with certainty that this doesn't happen. If it seems to be happening, there's some other mechanism at work.
And the reason they use a single string looped around a hitch pin is because otherwise you have to tie a loop in the end of the string. Piano strings don't come cut to length with loop ends. If you need a loop you have to make it and it's a bit of a pain. Much easier to do it this way.
HOWEVER.....there are pianos that use single strings for every treble string. They all have individual loops on their ends. It's not real common but I see it. Oh, and also....the piano wire is not the same throughout the treble unisons. It changes guage about every 6-8 notes.
3. Why do some strings not stay in tune? Well besides the fact that pianos are creations of Satan sometimes, there are several possibilities.
Loose tuning pins is a possibility. As was said earlier, you can replace them with a larger pin. Someone competent with tools could do this but where are you going to get the pin? And how do you know what size to get even if you knew where to get one? And you can't buy one anyway....you can buy a box of 250 for about $80. And to change the pin you'll almost always have to replace the string so then you have to have the right string.
You can also drive them in a little deeper to get a bite of some unused pin block. But I would consult with me or a tuner for some specifics before doing it. You could screw-up.
You could also have a string that was replaced and is still stretching just like new guitar strings do. Only a piano string can stretch for a freakin' year! Drives me crazy sometimes.
You can sometimes just have a string that sucks. You know how a guitar string sometimes won't stay at a particular place but will invariably jump up or down? Well, same thing. There's some things that I can try but sometimes it's just a sucky note. Pianos aren't perfect and they all have a note or two......some pianos have lots of them. You can even have a string that has prominent upper harmonics or partials. When they're strong enough the note will never sound right because you always hear two notes.
4. Can you tune your own piano? Granted, I'm a tuner and so you might think I wouldn't answer something like this honestly. But come on, none of you guys live where I'm gonna get the tunings so I have no motive to lie. So.........you can probably keep a problem note in passable tune if it keeps going out between tunings. And the fear of damaging a piano if you dare to fool with it is somewhat overstated. It is, after all, simply a mechanical device. A wooden one, but a mechanical device nonetheless and they don't just turn to dust if you hold your tongue wrong. But most of the tools needed to work on them are specialized and not available outside of piano supply places and many repairs simply can not be done without the proper tools.
And when it comes to regulation or voicing.....well I know professional tuners that aren't any good at regulating and many who simply won't do voicing.
So minor tuning of a few notes......you can probably do.
As for a complete tuning that ends up sounding good? Not a chance.
A quick response to the things I remember from the previous posts.
1. You pull the upper octaves sharp according to a electronic tuner, not flat. It's called even-tempered tuning and the amount of sharpness needed varies. I've seen pianos that didn't need to be stretched much but I've seen others that needed to be stretched as much as 1/4 step by the time you got all the way up.
2. You don't pull an adjacent string out of tune when tuning the next note that uses the same string. They do not slide around the hitch pin. I do this all day long every day and I can say with certainty that this doesn't happen. If it seems to be happening, there's some other mechanism at work.
And the reason they use a single string looped around a hitch pin is because otherwise you have to tie a loop in the end of the string. Piano strings don't come cut to length with loop ends. If you need a loop you have to make it and it's a bit of a pain. Much easier to do it this way.
HOWEVER.....there are pianos that use single strings for every treble string. They all have individual loops on their ends. It's not real common but I see it. Oh, and also....the piano wire is not the same throughout the treble unisons. It changes guage about every 6-8 notes.
3. Why do some strings not stay in tune? Well besides the fact that pianos are creations of Satan sometimes,
there are several possibilities.Loose tuning pins is a possibility. As was said earlier, you can replace them with a larger pin. Someone competent with tools could do this but where are you going to get the pin? And how do you know what size to get even if you knew where to get one? And you can't buy one anyway....you can buy a box of 250 for about $80. And to change the pin you'll almost always have to replace the string so then you have to have the right string.
You can also drive them in a little deeper to get a bite of some unused pin block. But I would consult with me or a tuner for some specifics before doing it. You could screw-up.
You could also have a string that was replaced and is still stretching just like new guitar strings do. Only a piano string can stretch for a freakin' year! Drives me crazy sometimes.
You can sometimes just have a string that sucks. You know how a guitar string sometimes won't stay at a particular place but will invariably jump up or down? Well, same thing. There's some things that I can try but sometimes it's just a sucky note. Pianos aren't perfect and they all have a note or two......some pianos have lots of them. You can even have a string that has prominent upper harmonics or partials. When they're strong enough the note will never sound right because you always hear two notes.
4. Can you tune your own piano? Granted, I'm a tuner and so you might think I wouldn't answer something like this honestly. But come on, none of you guys live where I'm gonna get the tunings so I have no motive to lie. So.........you can probably keep a problem note in passable tune if it keeps going out between tunings. And the fear of damaging a piano if you dare to fool with it is somewhat overstated. It is, after all, simply a mechanical device. A wooden one, but a mechanical device nonetheless and they don't just turn to dust if you hold your tongue wrong. But most of the tools needed to work on them are specialized and not available outside of piano supply places and many repairs simply can not be done without the proper tools.
And when it comes to regulation or voicing.....well I know professional tuners that aren't any good at regulating and many who simply won't do voicing.
So minor tuning of a few notes......you can probably do.
As for a complete tuning that ends up sounding good? Not a chance.
L
littledog
New member
Well said, Lt. Bob!
As a studio owner, my piano tech does anywhere from 30-50 tunings and other miscellaneous maintenance in an average year. I am probably more dependent on him for the success of my business than any other single person, which definitely qualifies him as an unsung hero. A good piano tech is a treasure. About time they got the credit and respect they're due.
As a studio owner, my piano tech does anywhere from 30-50 tunings and other miscellaneous maintenance in an average year. I am probably more dependent on him for the success of my business than any other single person, which definitely qualifies him as an unsung hero. A good piano tech is a treasure. About time they got the credit and respect they're due.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
I'll tell you something else. There will come a time when it will be hard to find a good piano tech. You have to tune for years and do at least several hundred pianos before you can consistantly do passable tunings. And I didn't get really good 'till I'd been doing it for about 10 years. When I learned, you still had piano stores. Every town had at least one and any city had several. Big cities could have a dozen. And all these stores had lots of new pianos through the store. Since new pianos don't hold tune well, an apprentice tuner could do the "floor" tunings for cheap as practice. If he did a bad tuning, it didn't matter 'cause it wasn't gonna stay in tune anyway. So you could learn your trade.
But now piano stores are a dying breed. And they don't sell great numbers of them anymore so there is no constant flow of pianos for an apprentice to practice on. This means there is nowhere for new tuners to learn their trade. But you can't go to someone's home and charge them to tune their piano and then do a crappy job. It won't be long before no one will use you. So where are the new tuners gonna come from?
I've had people tell me I should take on an apprentice but I'd have to pay him something and everything I did would take twice as long because I'd have to explain everything to him. So I don't see it as being a good thing for me. I suppose in somewhere like New York there will always be tuners and piano stores for them to learn in. But in the vast majority of smaller areas, I think a good tuner will be scarce. Hell, they're actually a little scarce right now and many of them aren't the most honest or reasonably priced craftsmen you would hope for. Oh well.....bedtime, gotta get up and tune, tune, tune!
But now piano stores are a dying breed. And they don't sell great numbers of them anymore so there is no constant flow of pianos for an apprentice to practice on. This means there is nowhere for new tuners to learn their trade. But you can't go to someone's home and charge them to tune their piano and then do a crappy job. It won't be long before no one will use you. So where are the new tuners gonna come from?
I've had people tell me I should take on an apprentice but I'd have to pay him something and everything I did would take twice as long because I'd have to explain everything to him. So I don't see it as being a good thing for me. I suppose in somewhere like New York there will always be tuners and piano stores for them to learn in. But in the vast majority of smaller areas, I think a good tuner will be scarce. Hell, they're actually a little scarce right now and many of them aren't the most honest or reasonably priced craftsmen you would hope for. Oh well.....bedtime, gotta get up and tune, tune, tune!
L
littledog
New member
Interesting post, L.B. There's another factor that may also contribute to the increasing scarcity you predict. In past years, most schools for the blind had programs for training piano technicians that were very popular. But lately, it has become somewhat politically incorrect and considered to be "promoting stereotypes" to encourage blind people to become piano tuners, so there are less and less attending those programs, and some are even being phased out.
knightfly
GrouchyOldFartOnBatteries
My folks always had a blind piano tuner do ours when I was growing up, and it always sounded incredible when he was finished. Guess partly because he wasn't handicapped by sight...
Saw a bumper sticker a while back, laughed my ass off - "I'd rather be right than politically correct"...
I sure hope this scarcity gets reversed, or real pianos will become as rare as "real" to "real" recorders... Steve
Saw a bumper sticker a while back, laughed my ass off - "I'd rather be right than politically correct"...
I sure hope this scarcity gets reversed, or real pianos will become as rare as "real" to "real" recorders... Steve
B
Bigus Dickus
New member
Good advice there. I may actually get some felts and wedges and such to do upkeep tuning on my problem strings. Would be a good learning experience at least, and in all likelihood the strings on those notes needs to be replaced, or a pin changed, so I'm not that afraid of doing any damage. I have a great ear, I hear problems in my piano that hardly anyone else hears, have been playing instruments my whole life (though, not piano... I'm a newbie at that, but learning fast), played in orchestras etc. I think I could manage a stubborn string or two.
At the risk of sounding like a complete moron though, could someone explain what regulating and voicing are? I could take some guesses, and probably get fairly close, but I like to be explained things by experts so that I don't have to question my knowledge often.
I really think I'm going to look around for another tuner/tech, if for no other reason than to get a second opinion. Knowing that strings just don't slip around the hitch pin shakes my confidence just a bit in my current guy.
About the "even tempered" tuning part... that thought had crossed my mind earlier in the thread, but I never brought up that discussion. I have always been told (and by using my ears, come to believe) that what "sounds" in tune may not always be the mathematical perfect tuning.
In fact, when playing in orchestras (trumpet), it drove me crazy to have to match the tuning of the string section. When they play a minor third, it's always a bit flat, but "sounds" right. When they play a major third though, it's a bit sharp, but again "sounds" right... gives many passages that bright majestic quality to play thirds a bit high. Major sevenths sharp, minor sevenths flat. My whole sheet music was covered in little up and down arrows to remind me which way to bend the notes to stay "in tune." Completely different than playing solo or with just a wind ensemble.
At the risk of sounding like a complete moron though, could someone explain what regulating and voicing are? I could take some guesses, and probably get fairly close, but I like to be explained things by experts so that I don't have to question my knowledge often.
I really think I'm going to look around for another tuner/tech, if for no other reason than to get a second opinion. Knowing that strings just don't slip around the hitch pin shakes my confidence just a bit in my current guy.
About the "even tempered" tuning part... that thought had crossed my mind earlier in the thread, but I never brought up that discussion. I have always been told (and by using my ears, come to believe) that what "sounds" in tune may not always be the mathematical perfect tuning.
In fact, when playing in orchestras (trumpet), it drove me crazy to have to match the tuning of the string section. When they play a minor third, it's always a bit flat, but "sounds" right. When they play a major third though, it's a bit sharp, but again "sounds" right... gives many passages that bright majestic quality to play thirds a bit high. Major sevenths sharp, minor sevenths flat. My whole sheet music was covered in little up and down arrows to remind me which way to bend the notes to stay "in tune." Completely different than playing solo or with just a wind ensemble.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
You obviously have a good grasp on even-tempered tuning. Yes it's true....mathematically in tune doesn't always sound in tune. And you do have to stretch some intervals and compress others. For example....stretch an interval to where you hear 3 beats in 5 seconds.
Regulation simply means adjusting the range of movement of the different action parts. For instance a jack should let-off when the hammer is 3/8 inch from the strings. (it varies depending on the piano ) A key should depress a certain amount. A back-check should capture the hammer at a certain distance from the strings and so on. So regulating is a fancy word for adjustment.
Voicing means changing the hardness of the hammers. Usually you're wanting to soften them. You do this with a voicing tool which is a bunch of needles that you shove into the shoulders of the hammer. This breaks down and fluffs up the felt creating a darker tone. You can mellow out an excessively bright sound this way. Also sometimes when you have strings that have an almost buzzy soundl you can fix it this way. A little goes a long way and it's not really reversible.
Sometimes you might put a solution on a hammer to harden it. This isn't as common however.
If you have a loose tuning pin.....just take a hammer and drive it in deeper.....BUT....you can't drive it any deeper than the bottom of the coil. In other word, once the windings of the string touch the plate....you can't go any deeper. and you actually should leave a tiny gap between the coil and the plate. Also, when you whack that pin....the string is gonna drop in pitch several steps and you'll have to pull it back up. You won't however, damage your pin-block this way. Hope this helps....feel free to ask anything you want to know. Gotta go gig.
Regulation simply means adjusting the range of movement of the different action parts. For instance a jack should let-off when the hammer is 3/8 inch from the strings. (it varies depending on the piano ) A key should depress a certain amount. A back-check should capture the hammer at a certain distance from the strings and so on. So regulating is a fancy word for adjustment.
Voicing means changing the hardness of the hammers. Usually you're wanting to soften them. You do this with a voicing tool which is a bunch of needles that you shove into the shoulders of the hammer. This breaks down and fluffs up the felt creating a darker tone. You can mellow out an excessively bright sound this way. Also sometimes when you have strings that have an almost buzzy soundl you can fix it this way. A little goes a long way and it's not really reversible.
Sometimes you might put a solution on a hammer to harden it. This isn't as common however.
If you have a loose tuning pin.....just take a hammer and drive it in deeper.....BUT....you can't drive it any deeper than the bottom of the coil. In other word, once the windings of the string touch the plate....you can't go any deeper. and you actually should leave a tiny gap between the coil and the plate. Also, when you whack that pin....the string is gonna drop in pitch several steps and you'll have to pull it back up. You won't however, damage your pin-block this way. Hope this helps....feel free to ask anything you want to know. Gotta go gig.