Tuning a bass

[Bassman Brad]

I do have some comments to add to lpdeluxe's last post (which I thought was excellent, by the way). In keeping with the spirit of this thread (i.e. in an attempt to stretch the page count out to an increasingly absurd degree), I'll add my comments in separate posts.

Brad

 

[Bassman Brad]

Back in the '70's (I hasten to add, NINETEEN-'70's), there was a composer who lived in MusicConductor's town of Glendale CA who was dissatisfied with the equal temperment, to the extent that he built guitars with 31 frets per octave so each note could be in perfect tune. As I remember, a refinement was to use partial frets so that each string was intonated a little differently from its neighbor. Privately, I think this is a bit much, and trading equal temperment for something you need 30 fingers to fret is no bargain. But he, and many others, have a finely tuned sense of pitch, and for them, equal temperment tuning is NOT close enough for rock n roll.

Cool. I wasn't aware of this guy's work. So, he tried to develop a microtonal electric guitar???? Didn't know anybody ever tried to develop such a thing. Due to the complications in actually playing those microtonal scales, many of the developers of microtonal scales invented entirely new instruments to play those scales. Harry Partch comes to mind. He invented entire families of musical instruments to perform the music that he composed on microtonal scales. I found this web page (there are many more): http://www.harrypartch.com/ Check it out for more information on this guy, who was one of the most famous figures in microtonalism.

 

[Bassman Brad]

Other efforts include the Felton tuning system, and the '60's Gretsch "Tempered Treble" where the frets from about 17-22 were tilted in relation to the fingerboard so that the higher strings were sharped.

I'm not familiar with either of these systems, either. However, the Gretch system makes perfect sense to me. In fact, I think the "stretched tuning" is still commonly used on acoustic pianos (ones that are intended to be played as solo instruments). In standard stretch tuning, the bass strings are tuned progressively more flat and the treble strings are tuned progressively more sharp. This is not a microtonal system, by the way, it's simply a modification done to the conventional 12-Tone scale. From what I understand, this has to due with psychoacoustics - the science of how we perceive sound. Apparently, humans tend to hear low notes a little sharp and high notes a little flat. Stretch tuning is designed to compensate for this. An instrument that has been tuned in this fashion is actually more OUT OF TUNE with itself, but it sounds more IN TUNE, when you hear it being played. Psychoacoustics is another subject that totally fascinates me.

 

[Bassman Brad]

As you might expect, it's an issue that gets more important as the instruments get louder. The original clavier was not as loud as the modern pianoforte, and as a result any dissonant harmonics would not be as grating. Translate the 17th Century tuning to a Precision through an SVT with 8 tens, however, and harmonic anomalies might become more apparent.

Actually, I'm inclined to disagree with you, here, lpdeluxe (respectfully, of course). I'm not certain that increasing the loudness of an instrument makes us more likely to hear subtlies in tuning. In fact, I suspect that the opposite is true. As things get louder, it becomes HARDER to hear tuning problems. Which is why, if you are tracking a vocalist in your studio, for example, you want to listen at a quiet level when listening for problems with pitch.

Furthermore, on bass instruments, I suspect that we lose the ability to discern fine detail when you get into the very lowest limits of the range. The low B string on a five string is 31 hz, I believe. The F# on a seven string is a fourth below that. At that range, you can't even hardly discern a noticable pitch, much less discern whether it's in tune or not. Those extremely low notes are felt more than they're heard, and I think of them more as "sound effects" than actual musical tones. I suspect that human hearing is most sensitive to pitch discrepancies in the upper midrange (in the range of the human voice) and falls off at either end of the scale. But, I'm just guessing on this. I don't know for sure.

Brad

 

[Unsprung]

The last time I looked at this thread, it wasn't rated. Now we're up to 5 stars! We must be doing something right!

Matt

 

[noisedude]

I just wanted you to know that I enjoyed the use of the name 'Pagannini' as an insult in this thread. Five stars to you.

I did warn you I was giving you five stars!

 

[lpdeluxe]

Thank you, Brad.

My remark about loudness was simply to point out that those out-of-tune upper harmonics are amplified along with everything else.

Correction: I said, "Felton"; it is, correctly, "Buzz Feiten Tuning" (and here's a link: http://www.buzzfeiten.com/). The Gretsch Tempered Treble, in case I didn't explain it properly, requires slanting the frets away from perpendicular to the axis of the fingerboard by 1 degree. The treble end is closer to the bridge than the bass end of the fret, in other words. Check out the angle of the frets in the attached .jpg.

As to your point about low bass notes, it probably requires some ear training to accurately hear that far down. I was thinking about my very early days as a bass player (long before electronic tuners, or for that matter, electricity) when I could only approximate where I was supposed to be. When I performed with guitarists, I tended to play around the 12th fret, and I bent a lot of notes up to try to be in tune with them! Anyhow, the only way I know for sure on my 5-string is by using the tuner and a 12th-fret harmonic. That low B is one step above the low A on a piano. I'm not sure I could do anything musically valuable with the low F. Earthquake sound effects, maybe.

 

[Garry Sharp]

Actually, I'm inclined to disagree with you, here, lpdeluxe (respectfully, of course). I'm not certain that increasing the loudness of an instrument makes us more likely to hear subtlies in tuning. In fact, I suspect that the opposite is true. As things get louder, it becomes HARDER to hear tuning problems. Which is why, if you are tracking a vocalist in your studio, for example, you want to listen at a quiet level when listening for problems with pitch.

When the Boomtown Rats went into the studio for the first time, they discovered that at one point in a song they'd been gigging successfully for ages, the two guitarists were actually playing different chords. It's just that they had always played so loud, nobody had ever spotted it

 

[lpdeluxe]

In the spirit of lengthening this beyond all reason...

...I'll add that B is 30.868Hz (but 31's "close enough") and the low F is 21.876!
Whew.

From Garry Sharp [not related to your sense of pitch, surely? There are two drummers that live hereabouts, one named Crisp and the other, Strong. Coincidence?]: "they had always played so loud, nobody had ever spotted it."
That's great. I had the honor of playing with loud bands, when I was younger, who took that principal to heart.

 

[Garry Sharp]

Yes, I'm G Sharp, I live in A Flat (that's what we call apartments in England) and I have a little Minor (well, she's 15 now, not so little anymore)

PS Principle, surely?

 

[dragonworks]

Hagstom used to make and eight string bass.

 

[noisedude]

Garry ... if I change my name to Chris Major will you hook me up with your sprog when she turns 18?

 

[Garry Sharp]

Garry ... if I change my name to Chris Major will you hook me up with your sprog when she turns 18?

My God, you're a brave boy. She frightens the life out of me. Gets up at 6.30 so she can do extra Greek and Latin before school starts. And she plays an SG (well, OK, a copy I bought her). Her other hobby is kickboxing (I kid you not.) She likes Green Day, in the absence of anything a bit more upfront.
Still want that phone number?

PS - lest I be accused of dragging the thread off topic - she is very in tune with her surroundings. (Phew...I think I got away with that)

 

[noisedude]

Well if I just take off my ex-girlfriend's Green Day Warning Tour hoodie for a second .... she sounds great. I could do with some help with my Greek in fact, maybe I'll email some New Testament translation coursework over for you to get her to correct!

Get back to me in three years ... heck, she's younger than some of the kids I do youthwork with!

BACK ON TOPIC - YOU CAN RETURN FROM THE EDGES OF YOUR SEATS NOW -

Tonight I've been recording. I have been recording without a tuner. Oh the wasted hours! Yes, I've managed to lose my Boss tuner and the Korg I 'accidentally' liberated from a friend's guitar case has now also gone missing. Someone post me one of their spares, this is a nightmare

 

[Bassman Brad]

I've managed to lose my Boss tuner and the Korg I 'accidentally' liberated from a friend's guitar case has now also gone missing. Someone post me one of their spares, this is a nightmare

Post you one of my spares? Well, OK, here 'ya go. Here's one of the ones I use.

Don't know how it'll help 'ya, though.

 

[noisedude]

Sarcastic though that was, it got me thinking. Is there such thing as a plug-in tuner you can get for your software? If Auto-Tune can assess and change pitch it must surely be possible for a tuner to do so?

 

[lpdeluxe]

Software tuner

The software that comes with the Tascam US428 has a tuner feature. But that's not what I wanted to talk about. I wanted to add, to my tale of the Glendale musical person, that his interest was NOT in microtones, but in being able to play a guitar chord EXACTLY in tune! Thus, the G# for an Emaj chord had to be a teeny bit different from the G# for a Dmaj chord. This resulted in an unmanageable number of fret segments on the neck of his guitar, but he seemed to like it OK. Imagine memorizing which G# you were going to fret for each chord.

Back on topic: when I got my first bass (a JB copy which I still have, heavily modified over the years), I was between marriages and there was a young lady guitarist who lived nearby who lusted after my bass (what did you think I was going to say?). She was obsessive about tuning, but unfortunately she was rather a short person. I say, unfortunately, because she would strap on the bass, pluck a couple of notes, then reach for the tuning keys...and the neck, attached to the bass body, strapped to her bod, would swing away from her reaching hand....She couldn't get her fingers closer than within 5" of the low E key.

Having heard her play her guitar after she "tuned" it, I inwardly rejoiced and I failed to point out to her that she could sit down, take off the strap, and easily reach the pegs.

 

[ez_willis]

Sarcastic though that was, it got me thinking. Is there such thing as a plug-in tuner you can get for your software? If Auto-Tune can assess and change pitch it must surely be possible for a tuner to do so?

Here's one.

Here's another.

 

[noisedude]

Thank you both! You may have just made my weekend, which at gone 10pm on Sunday night is a good last-minute catch!

 

[lpdeluxe]

Here it is

My 1981 Global Jazz copy. Note the "humbucker" pickups (or, at least, pickups with "humbucker" covers), natural finish, and the Ampeg B100R in the back. The originally huge neck has been cut into a "vee" shape, and the neck has been tweaked into playability over 24 years. I made a brass nut for it in '84 or thereabouts, and just a couple of weeks ago changed to a graphite nut. Other than that, it's the genuine $120 (new) article. I found an orange-plush lined Fender case for it. I got a new Carvin LB20 4-1/2 years ago (photo previously posted in this thread), and at that time I lent this to my stepson. I just got it back, and have played it exclusively since. It has GHS Brite Flats, by the way, which I tune as close as it needs to be, just to stay on topic.