Tuning 1/2 step down and A=432 Hz?
- Thread starter mykie_a
- Start date
bennychico11
...
I think it varies by country. Most use 440 as standard...but there are others that use 432.
Maybe this helps?:
http://www.earthmatrix.com/piano/octave.htm
Maybe this helps?:
http://www.earthmatrix.com/piano/octave.htm
noisewreck
New member
Yes... somewhat...
What you're mentioning (actually 435Hz) was an international tuning standard proposed by the French in 1850s. However, during the Baroque era the pitch was lower, about half step lower in fact which would put you around 415-420Hz. Music of J.S.Bach and others around that period (1650-1750) was normally performed between 415-430.
Now, here's where the fun begins... During Chopin's era pianos were actually tuned around A=457Hz!
I think things didn't standardize around A=440 until 1930s or so.
What you're mentioning (actually 435Hz) was an international tuning standard proposed by the French in 1850s. However, during the Baroque era the pitch was lower, about half step lower in fact which would put you around 415-420Hz. Music of J.S.Bach and others around that period (1650-1750) was normally performed between 415-430.
Now, here's where the fun begins... During Chopin's era pianos were actually tuned around A=457Hz!
I think things didn't standardize around A=440 until 1930s or so.
D
danny.guitar
Guest
Hm, that or...
The singer has an easier time singing in that tuning
The song sounds better down a half step
aerospace1
New member
neat
that is very cool stuff! so I'm not really off-pitch when I sing, I just have a different tuning in mind
that is very cool stuff! so I'm not really off-pitch when I sing, I just have a different tuning in mind
NYMorningstar
Recording Modus Operandi
That is so true. Our choir singing acapello will always end up in the Key of Eb. It's happened so often that I now tune to Eb and use a capo on the first fret for playing standard tuned songs. I have found that many live songs are actually 1/2 step down also.
bennychico11
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that is very cool stuff! so I'm not really off-pitch when I sing, I just have a different tuning in mind
no you're off pitch
I don't believe in the "resonance in humans" makes people want to sing in a different key....or let alone off pitch (since 432Hz isn't a note in our western music today). You have to realize too that there is more than just A440 in the scale. Most people who sing out of tune, end a song out of tune, etc. aren't singing the entire song out of key...usually it's certain notes here and there they can't reach or they drift out of tune because they aren't remembering what they just sang. And it's not just one key either...it's all of them. Every singer has his/her range. Unlike a guitar or piano, the range can vary from day to day too depending on how that person is feeling. The voice is such an unstable instrument. It's not a "press this button and you get this pitch" instrument. It'd be similar to restringing a fretless guitar with totally different pitched strings (and not necessarily tuned) and telling you to find me A440 on the first try...oh and this is your first time ever picking up the guitar. Even if you had perfect pitch, you'd have to try out a few different notes before you got the right one. Or for those of us who don't have perfect pitch, we'd have to at least hear a reference note.
bennychico11
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1/2 step down with reference to what? make your choir sing in the correct key. Not every song can be in the key they want. Most likely it's not the choir prefers it in Eb, it's they aren't used to singing a cappella yet...they're just drifting off. Listen as they sing and stop them when they start to drift. It's good to check pitches during rehearsal during certain parts of the music
NYMorningstar
Recording Modus Operandi
That would be 1/2 step down from a normal tuning using A=440. The choir I play for are not professional singers or musicians and get about 20 minutes of practice per song if any.
I noticed the tendancy to switch to or start a song in Eb when they would process into the church with no instrumentation. My fix for that was to march in with them using an acoustic guitar and that works well.
SonicAlbert
Super-Sonic "Herb" Albert
You probably have a choir member or two who sings loudest and always ends up in Eb because that's his or her best key, or most natural key. Probably a male member of the choir is steering things that way.
It has to sound weird to start a song in one key and then have it switch to Eb. I personally would try to find the instigator(s) and then work them out of that habit. Part of working with singers who are not professional singers is educating them, and they usually appreciate the ear training.
Baroque music is difficult for modern performers because of the keys chosen by the composers back then. They used keys that were based on a lower tuning, and now that "A" is 440 or above, it's physically much harder to sing in that tessitura.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
I am not an expert at this by far, so please correct me where I'm wrong, but...
Doesn't much of this depend upon which charts are used? By that I mean, because scales and tunings *have* changed over the centuries, hasn't much of the old, old music been re-written to conform to the modern scales? For example, something like today's "Greensleeves" actually bears only a superficial melodic resemblence to the traditional versions of it because it was original written in scales not accessable by today's fretted instruments - let alone translateabel to today's scales.
Now perhaps for some of the more recent classical guys for whom we still have the original charts this may not be so much the case, maybe. But go far enough back, where there were only "traditional" arrangements (often more than one) passed down pretty much untranscribed, changes/adaptations have been made to the actual compositions in order to fit modern scales and instruments.
Is that understanding waaaay off?
G.
bennychico11
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http://www.schillerinstitute.org/music/rev_tuning_hist.html
interesting. so there still is technically no standard for A
interesting. so there still is technically no standard for A
noisewreck
New member
Not quite. The "traditional" western scales date back to Pythagoras, although the 12-note (as opposed to 12 tone) scales became more prevalent during the middle ages, used in Gregorian Chants, as well as by the minstrels. However, there are several things you have to keep in mind about music of that era dealing with tuning and tonality (although, come to think of it, modern rock and a lot of electronic dance music isn't that far off in that regard... but I digress...)
1. Equal temperament was not used until early 1800s.
2. Most brass winds could not play chromatically (the exception being the Trombone and its predecessor Sackbut), which necessitated the use of instruments of different tunnings (Trumpets in D, F, Bb, E, C and A being specially popular... same with Horns).
3. Modulation and chromaticism were almost unheard of, at least beyond the Tonic, Supertonic and the Dominant (I - IV - V). Kind of like today's pop
Jazz is different story So, given that, older tunings tended to favor certain tonalities (ones with few flats or sharps, such as F major, or D minor or E dorian), at the expense of others. This also included the tuning of keyboard instruments such as the harpsichord and the organ. Several variations on Pythagorean and "Just intonation" tunings were used, which made the tonality that they were centered around sound a lot more resonant (compared to our equal temperament) when playing chords as the notes in the chords reinforced each other's natural harmonics... which is what the old brass instruments were limited to anyway...
So, the end result was their stuff sounded more harmonious and resonant, at the expense of tonal (in the sense of a scale not sound quality) flexibility.
However, the differences among the different tunnings note for note are several cents, usually not more than 10-15 cents in the most far-off situations, compared to Equal Temperament.
Sooo... after all this long-winded stuff, what I am getting at is that the scales themselves haven't really changed much, except that nowdays we tend to not use modal scales as much as they did in the past (Jazz notwithstanding), only the way we tune our instruments. And although this does affect the overall sound, it doesn't fundamentally alter the melodic aspect of the composition.
Overall, what your tuning reference is (A=440Hz or something else) is going to affect the range far more than the actual tuning methodology. In fact, even nowdays, many a capella groups will tend towards the natural "temperaments", as they sound more harmonious, a prime example being barbershop quartets.
Well, there Glen, I think I am going to get a certain someone come after me for long posts now
Hope this long winded nonsense actually makes some sense and answers your question.
bennychico11
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G#4 would be 415.305Hz
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Thanks, George! Seeing as how I actually know how to read and am not too old to learn new things (and don't use BlackberrysWell, there Glen, I think I am going to get a certain someone come after me for long posts now
Hope this long winded nonsense actually makes some sense and answers your question.
), I have no problem reading long posts that contain good info. Much appreciated 
Earlier this year I read a book called "Guitar:An American Life" by Tim Brooks. I thouht I had remembered him mention about early minstral and such that was based more on fretless strings than keys found it's own tunings AND intonations that were not limited to the 12-note system.
But having just gone back and searching that book on Amazon, I see now that he was talking about "old time" Appalachian (pre-Bluegrass, ca. 1920) and not about the early European stuff.
So never mind then
But thanks for the history refresher anyway
G.
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NYMorningstar
Recording Modus Operandi
On a guitar when you tune down 1/2 step it adds availability to a group of lower notes. It's almost like adding another fret. Your open strings from top down would be Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Bb and Eb.
It really opens alot of doors and styles when you do that because of the ability to play new (different) open chord structures. It helps out tremendously in figuring out songs played in a flat key e.g. Outside by StainD.
Disclaimer: This still won't help you figure out the ole Beatles and Dylan tunes where they changed the tape speeds to raise and/or lower the pitch before release. Those and many others mysteriously ended up somewhere in between standard keys
To get back to traditional style you need only capo the first fret and you have the standard tuning. This saves me needing many different guitars for different songs in a live setting.
D
danny.guitar
Guest
I do the same thing; keep my guitar down a half step and just capo it when I want to go to standard tuning. Always seem to have to re-tune my low E string though, almost every time. 
On a guitar when you tune down 1/2 step it adds availability to a group of lower notes. It's almost like adding another fret. Your open strings from top down would be Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Bb and Eb.
It really opens alot of doors and styles when you do that because of the ability to play new (different) open chord structures. It helps out tremendously in figuring out songs played in a flat key e.g. Outside by StainD.
Disclaimer: This still won't help you figure out the ole Beatles and Dylan tunes where they changed the tape speeds to raise and/or lower the pitch before release. Those and many others mysteriously ended up somewhere in between standard keys
To get back to traditional style you need only capo the first fret and you have the standard tuning. This saves me needing many different guitars for different songs in a live setting.
but am i not now losing those notes i had tuned away from?