Track Rat
Just Your Average Sized Member
If I hear toob and warmth one more time I'm going to hurt someone.
R
Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Yo dmb! There are 2 issues here. What do tube mics (or for that matter tube amps) do? and.. what is "warmth", as it applies to sound reproduction? Once upon a time, all condenser mics and all amplifiers used vacuum tubes ("valves" if you are British) in their power section, because it's what they had. The development of solid state technology in the 60's led to condenser mics and amps with no tubes. Great recordings were made with both types of equipment, and that continues to be true.
By and large, tubes create distortion, which increases when the tube is overloaded. The results vary according to the type of tube, the extent to which it is overdriven, and the entire design of the rest of the signal chain. This distortion is called "warmth" when we like it, and "muddy" when it is obvious, and we don't like it. In guitar amps, usually distortion is more obvious, and tube designs have been favored by many guitarists over solid state designs for years.
In microphones and mic preamps, the designs were actually created to produce very little distortion, but there is still some. Sometimes this distortion hides annoying details in sound, like airbrushing a centerfold. Often this is flattering, and we call it "warmth". Sometimes it just sounds like a cheap mic or amp distorting the signal, and it sucks.
There are very few generalizations that will hold true about tube mics vs. solid state mics. A very good tube mic will often produce less distortion than many solid state mics. In the end, whether a mic has a tube in it or not has very little to do with whether it will sound good or not in any given situation.
Sometimes, changing to a very good tube, or just a different one, can change the sound, making it better or worse for what the end user wants. Will a big-time expensive tube mic "warm up" vocals? Not necessarily. A Brauner will most likely make you sound the way you sound. If you are a very good singer, that's a good thing. Will a lower priced tube mic "warm up" vocals? Probably not. In the lower range of tube mics, I like Rode NTK and Studio Projects T3. There are some MXL tube mics that are popular, but I have not used them.
NTK is a perfect example. It works very well for me, along with other mics, but many people hate it. Mics are like shoes. They either fit, or they don't, and cheap shoes that fit are better than expensive ones that don't. Putting a tube in a mic does not make it any more likely that the shoe will fit you. All you can do is buy mics that are respected, and are good for recording *something*, so at least, you can re-sell them if the shoe doesn't fit. And- never miss an opportunity to sing into a mic you haven't tried before, even one that may not be seen as a "vocal" mic. If you want to find the handsome prince, you have to kiss a lot of frogs.-Richie
By and large, tubes create distortion, which increases when the tube is overloaded. The results vary according to the type of tube, the extent to which it is overdriven, and the entire design of the rest of the signal chain. This distortion is called "warmth" when we like it, and "muddy" when it is obvious, and we don't like it. In guitar amps, usually distortion is more obvious, and tube designs have been favored by many guitarists over solid state designs for years.
In microphones and mic preamps, the designs were actually created to produce very little distortion, but there is still some. Sometimes this distortion hides annoying details in sound, like airbrushing a centerfold. Often this is flattering, and we call it "warmth". Sometimes it just sounds like a cheap mic or amp distorting the signal, and it sucks.
There are very few generalizations that will hold true about tube mics vs. solid state mics. A very good tube mic will often produce less distortion than many solid state mics. In the end, whether a mic has a tube in it or not has very little to do with whether it will sound good or not in any given situation.
Sometimes, changing to a very good tube, or just a different one, can change the sound, making it better or worse for what the end user wants. Will a big-time expensive tube mic "warm up" vocals? Not necessarily. A Brauner will most likely make you sound the way you sound. If you are a very good singer, that's a good thing. Will a lower priced tube mic "warm up" vocals? Probably not. In the lower range of tube mics, I like Rode NTK and Studio Projects T3. There are some MXL tube mics that are popular, but I have not used them.
NTK is a perfect example. It works very well for me, along with other mics, but many people hate it. Mics are like shoes. They either fit, or they don't, and cheap shoes that fit are better than expensive ones that don't. Putting a tube in a mic does not make it any more likely that the shoe will fit you. All you can do is buy mics that are respected, and are good for recording *something*, so at least, you can re-sell them if the shoe doesn't fit. And- never miss an opportunity to sing into a mic you haven't tried before, even one that may not be seen as a "vocal" mic. If you want to find the handsome prince, you have to kiss a lot of frogs.-Richie
kojdogg
bollocks redux!
Han made a great point about the other components in the circuits of these mics (the transformer, the capsule, the capacitors, etc.) making a huge difference in the sounds. There's a great review of the Mohave Audio MA-200 by (mic guru) Scott Dorsey where he points out many times that the MA-200 uses the same Shanghai capsule as many other Chinese (i.e. the MXL) mics, but the rest of the circuit (including the transformer and how the capsule is powered) has been altered around it with better components and a much better design. The Mohave Audio mic is actually descended from a kit that Dave Royer used to offer with new PCB's and other components, for advanced DIY'ers to convert Marshall MXL 2001's into tube mics (essentially what is now the MA-200).
Point is that "tube/not tube" in a mic can have far less to do with how it ultimately sounds than the rest of the circuit.
Also worth noting is that many of these cheaper mics use 12ax7's in their circuit, when 6072a's (12ay7's) will sound far better and less distorted/harsh.
Point is that "tube/not tube" in a mic can have far less to do with how it ultimately sounds than the rest of the circuit.
Also worth noting is that many of these cheaper mics use 12ax7's in their circuit, when 6072a's (12ay7's) will sound far better and less distorted/harsh.
C
chessrock
Banned
Minion said:
Audiophiles don't talk much about tubes.
To them, they are a curious, albeit somewhat primitive and dirty, artifact from the past that is ultimately of little to no consequence in their world.
.
kojdogg
bollocks redux!
Unless they like to listen to vinyl recordschessrock said:
H
hungovermorning
Dr. Caveman.
chessrock said:
Yes and no. Definitely that feeling about a 12ax7, but some bigger preamp tubes are thought of kindly.
On tube topic: totally agreed with many in this thread that the pre makes a huge difference. A tube mic with a point to point tube pre is a very good thing.
Caotico
for all the right reasons
hungovermorning said:
What about a regular condensor with a tube pre? What sound does that give you? Is it similar to having a tube mic?
rayc
retroreprobate
Track rat,
Instead of "...toob and warmth..." how about valve and pleasant?
I don't think it's correct to say audiophiles dislike valve/tubes. More the case that audiophiles don't like anything that distracts from or overly colours a recording. Given that a lot of old but good vinyl was made with valve tech & for tech I'd say that was rather in keeping with the integrity of the recording.
The pleasantness or WARMTH from tube/valve technology is also quite subjective. In many instances it's a matter of "classic" & mythical status colouring perception as well as the recording - then there's the matter of early reference material colouring analysis.
All that said it's nice to sit by the warmth of a glowing set of valves listening to the sound of vinyl being warmed by friction with a bit of (hopefully) diamond and the resultant vibration transfer being every so slightly, yet warmly, coloured by those aforementioned incandescent beauties.
Instead of "...toob and warmth..." how about valve and pleasant?
I don't think it's correct to say audiophiles dislike valve/tubes. More the case that audiophiles don't like anything that distracts from or overly colours a recording. Given that a lot of old but good vinyl was made with valve tech & for tech I'd say that was rather in keeping with the integrity of the recording.
The pleasantness or WARMTH from tube/valve technology is also quite subjective. In many instances it's a matter of "classic" & mythical status colouring perception as well as the recording - then there's the matter of early reference material colouring analysis.
All that said it's nice to sit by the warmth of a glowing set of valves listening to the sound of vinyl being warmed by friction with a bit of (hopefully) diamond and the resultant vibration transfer being every so slightly, yet warmly, coloured by those aforementioned incandescent beauties.
R
Richard Monroe
Well-known member
Quote from Caotico:
"What about a regular condensor with a tube pre? What sound does that give you? Is it similar to having a tube mic?"
There is *no* specific "tube sound" or "solid state sound". Both tube based and solid state mics and pres vary across the entire sound spectrum. They can be colored or transparent, bright, dark, neutral, good, bad, and mediocre. The question that you have asked has no answer. Excellent professional recordings and amateurish demos have been made with every possible combination of tube and solid state gear. Concentrating on the presence or absence of a tube is a marketing strategy, not an engineering decision. Oh no, we can't use that Neve console, it doesn't have a tube. It'll sound cold and digital. I swear one of these days I'm going to take a tube and glue it to the top of my Avalon to see if the sound changes.-Richie
"What about a regular condensor with a tube pre? What sound does that give you? Is it similar to having a tube mic?"
There is *no* specific "tube sound" or "solid state sound". Both tube based and solid state mics and pres vary across the entire sound spectrum. They can be colored or transparent, bright, dark, neutral, good, bad, and mediocre. The question that you have asked has no answer. Excellent professional recordings and amateurish demos have been made with every possible combination of tube and solid state gear. Concentrating on the presence or absence of a tube is a marketing strategy, not an engineering decision. Oh no, we can't use that Neve console, it doesn't have a tube. It'll sound cold and digital. I swear one of these days I'm going to take a tube and glue it to the top of my Avalon to see if the sound changes.-Richie