Trying to understand MIDI thru

[Smithers XKR]

Think a hose and water Lets say you want the water to go to the pool and also to the spa
You connect the hose to the pool which has a special adapter that has water in, water through, and water out
The water from the hose bib (Lets call it a midi sequencer in your computer) that water goes into the pool ( lets say a midi keyboard) and also through to the spa (A midi module) ..they both get the same water ( messages) that came from the hose bib. Now the out only gets water that came from the pool that someone pissed in ( Ok you played some notes and sent those midi messages out) Those messages will not go to the midi module that is connected to the through it is only getting clean water from the hose bib...no piss water.......However if you connect that midi out line to another midi module that will play the notes you played on your controller ( pissy water )

I have not got a clue,

 

[Smithers XKR]

Think a hose and water Lets say you want the water to go to the pool and also to the spa
You connect the hose to the pool which has a special adapter that has water in, water through, and water out
The water from the hose bib (Lets call it a midi sequencer in your computer) that water goes into the pool ( lets say a midi keyboard) and also through to the spa (A midi module) ..they both get the same water ( messages) that came from the hose bib. Now the out only gets water that came from the pool that someone pissed in ( Ok you played some notes and sent those midi messages out) Those messages will not go to the midi module that is connected to the through it is only getting clean water from the hose bib...no piss water.......However if you connect that midi out line to another midi module that will play the notes you played on your controller ( pissy water )

So data is transfered from the control module to another piece of kit? The clean data. So what is the difference of data transfer between different pieces of kit? Surely it is just basic binary information transfer. Surely MIDI out and MIDI thru are transfering the same binary information? Are you saying that MIDI out sends extra information from the sending module whereas MIDI through just sends the basic binary code ??

 

[Smithers XKR]

Think a hose and water Lets say you want the water to go to the pool and also to the spa
You connect the hose to the pool which has a special adapter that has water in, water through, and water out
The water from the hose bib (Lets call it a midi sequencer in your computer) that water goes into the pool ( lets say a midi keyboard) and also through to the spa (A midi module) ..they both get the same water ( messages) that came from the hose bib. Now the out only gets water that came from the pool that someone pissed in ( Ok you played some notes and sent those midi messages out) Those messages will not go to the midi module that is connected to the through it is only getting clean water from the hose bib...no piss water.......However if you connect that midi out line to another midi module that will play the notes you played on your controller ( pissy water )

The MIDI thru function will transfer the original binary data through the piece of kit into the next link into the chain without any corruption or interference. By using the MIDI in function then the data will be influenced by the module before going to the MIDI out of the next processor in the chain.
Is this right?

 

[Smithers XKR]

Think a hose and water Lets say you want the water to go to the pool and also to the spa
You connect the hose to the pool which has a special adapter that has water in, water through, and water out
The water from the hose bib (Lets call it a midi sequencer in your computer) that water goes into the pool ( lets say a midi keyboard) and also through to the spa (A midi module) ..they both get the same water ( messages) that came from the hose bib. Now the out only gets water that came from the pool that someone pissed in ( Ok you played some notes and sent those midi messages out) Those messages will not go to the midi module that is connected to the through it is only getting clean water from the hose bib...no piss water.......However if you connect that midi out line to another midi module that will play the notes you played on your controller ( pissy water )

Got it

 

[TAE]

Got it

Cool man...glad I could help ya!

 

[Smithers XKR]

Cool man...glad I could help ya!

Listening to this TAE, takes me back and makes me sad also. She was so beautiful.. she is old and ill now. Where does the time go ?

 

[Smithers XKR]

Listening to this TAE, takes me back and makes me sad also. She was so beautiful.. she is old and ill now. Where does the time go ?

Sorry, pillock alert !!

 

[Slouching Raymond]

I'll just throw my £0.02 in. Midi Thru is just an electrically buffered copy of what arrived on Midi In. No storage or processing involved.
You can send the midi signal through a bunch of devices, by daisy chaining In - Thru - In -Thru - In - Thru.... etc.
All as good as instant.
The devices will pick off commands destined for them.

 

[Smithers XKR]

I'll just throw my £0.02 in. Midi Thru is just an electrically buffered copy of what arrived on Midi In. No storage or processing involved.
You can send the midi signal through a bunch of devices, by daisy chaining In - Thru - In -Thru - In - Thru.... etc.
All as good as instant.
The devices will pick off commands destined for them.

I dont understand, it makes no sense. So MIDI thru is a more simple data transfer without stuff from the previous piece of kit. But what are the transfer protocols from the previous piece of kit from MIDI out? And in what way does that corrupt the data? It makes no sense !!! ???

 

[Smithers XKR]

I dont understand, it makes no sense. So MIDI thru is a more simple data transfer without stuff from the previous piece of kit. But what are the transfer protocols from the previous piece of kit from MIDI out? And in what way does that corrupt the data? It makes no sense !!! ???

I may be stupid but I dont think I will ever get my head around this. MIDI out is the basic data transfer from previous machines including all of the data from that machine that involves that machine. MIDI thru is just the basic MIDI data that passes thru the machine without involving any data from that machine??? Is that right? Please help, my head hurts

 

[jamesperrett]

Midi thru is just a copy of whatever comes into the Midi input. Midi out is whatever the device wants it to be - it is safest to make no assumptions apart from assuming there are no rules. There is no getting away from it, if you want to use Midi you have to read the manuals otherwise you will always be scrabbling around in the dark. Some devices (particularly Alesis) might treat the Midi out as if it was a Midi thru but some devices will send nothing out unless you are in some obscure mode.

 

[Slouching Raymond]

I may be stupid but I dont think I will ever get my head around this. MIDI out is the basic data transfer from previous machines including all of the data from that machine that involves that machine. MIDI thru is just the basic MIDI data that passes thru the machine without involving any data from that machine??? Is that right? Please help, my head hurts

Yeah, you will. Think about midi 'IN and THRU' as being a separate communication channel to midi OUT.
Get down to a decent book shop. There are good books about midi.
The best one I have is 'MIDI for Musicians' US ISBN 0.8256.2214.X UK ISBN 0.7119.0822.2

All midi devices output midi commands on their Midi Out, such as 'Key Pressed' and 'Key Released'.
All Midi devices listen to their Midi In for commands on the one midi channel they are set to respond to. There are 16 midi channels that could flow into a Midi In, all at once. They are logically queued up in the single data stream. Midi Out-------->--------(16 Midi Channels)------->----------Midi In.

If you have programmed up tracks in your daw for 16 separate synths, and you want to play them all back through 16 physical synths, you would use a Midi In/Midi Thru
arrangement. All 16 channels would leave your daw through a single Midi Out, as a train of commands for 16 different destinations. It enters the first synth through that synth's Midi In, and that synth electrically generates a simple copy of the Midi In on its Midi Thru connector. That Midi Thru connects to the next synth's Midi In, annd then so on until the original daw Midi Out signal has passed through all of the synths.
There is one source, your daw, but multiple destinations. Each synth will monitor its incoming midi stream, listening out for commands addressed to the 1 of 16 midi channels it is set to respond to, and ignore commands for other destinations. There is only one transmitter - the daw.

Suppose you have 16 physical synths you wish to record midi from into 16 daw tracks. This is more difficult.
All 16 synth Midi Outs would have to plug in separately to 16 Midi in ports of a Midi Merger box. The 16 synths would have to be set to transmit on a different midi channel 1 - 16. Inside the Midi Merger box a little processor will recieve all of the 16 lots of incomming data, and package it up into a single data stream, which it then sends out of its Midi Out connector, which then goes to your daw.

 

[Ujn Hunter]

MIDI Thru (a copy of MIDI In) just allows you to daisy chain multiple MIDI instruments to 1 MIDI source. If all of your MIDI instruments are set to Channel 1 and your MIDI signal is sending MIDI to Channel 1, they'll all play the same notes. However as stated you can send up to 16 Channels of MIDI info... so if you set MIDI instrument A to Channel 1 and MIDI instrument B to Channel 2 you can make them play different notes by sending 1 MIDI source containing that info.

 

[rob aylestone]

Smithers - I think you are perhaps thinking a bit too much using modern ways kits communicates - there have been detailed and simplistic answers, but if it's still not settling, you probably need to go back a bit and then re-learn it. Let's try a different way, bu looking at a few common devices that use MIDI to talk to each other.

First thing is that unlike USB connections, MIDI is one way only. If it needs to go back, then that is a separate cable.

Master keyboard - simple or complex, but it sends MIDI data out of it's MIDI out socket. There is no MIDI inout or MIDI thru - because all it does is originate notes and other messages.

Sound module - no keyboard, so think about the common modules Yamaha, Roland, Korg and others make/made. Clearly these have a MIDI input - and most have a MIDI thru socket too. When we were using lots of modules, they could be programmed to produce just one sound - maybe a piano module, or an organ module, or a complete one - that had loads of sounds - often over a hundred. 16 available channels and 100+ sounds means you could set the module to do a piano on channel 1, and something else on channel 2 etc. The thru socket as mentioned above, is simply a repeat of what is coming in - identical, so this can go to the next module. If this one has a MIDI thru, then that continues the chain.

Synths with keyboard - this is where we start to get the confusion - firstly, you could use this as a master keyboard - but because it is sending data, you use the MIDI out. The synth will play it's onboard sounds when you press keys, and that also goes to the next module if you have one. However, if your output is going to a DAW, then the problems start. That DAW has to speak to the other devices. Master keyboards mess this all up, because rarely do they have an input. A synth, used as a master keyboard DOES have a MIDI in, so the DAW could squirt the replay audio in that socket.

 

[Smithers XKR]

Smithers - I think you are perhaps thinking a bit too much using modern ways kits communicates - there have been detailed and simplistic answers, but if it's still not settling, you probably need to go back a bit and then re-learn it. Let's try a different way, bu looking at a few common devices that use MIDI to talk to each other.

First thing is that unlike USB connections, MIDI is one way only. If it needs to go back, then that is a separate cable.

Master keyboard - simple or complex, but it sends MIDI data out of it's MIDI out socket. There is no MIDI inout or MIDI thru - because all it does is originate notes and other messages.

Sound module - no keyboard, so think about the common modules Yamaha, Roland, Korg and others make/made. Clearly these have a MIDI input - and most have a MIDI thru socket too. When we were using lots of modules, they could be programmed to produce just one sound - maybe a piano module, or an organ module, or a complete one - that had loads of sounds - often over a hundred. 16 available channels and 100+ sounds means you could set the module to do a piano on channel 1, and something else on channel 2 etc. The thru socket as mentioned above, is simply a repeat of what is coming in - identical, so this can go to the next module. If this one has a MIDI thru, then that continues the chain.

Synths with keyboard - this is where we start to get the confusion - firstly, you could use this as a master keyboard - but because it is sending data, you use the MIDI out. The synth will play it's onboard sounds when you press keys, and that also goes to the next module if you have one. However, if your output is going to a DAW, then the problems start. That DAW has to speak to the other devices. Master keyboards mess this all up, because rarely do they have an input. A synth, used as a master keyboard DOES have a MIDI in, so the DAW could squirt the replay audio in that socket.

Ok thanks Cheers Rob, I will study in the morn.

 

[Smithers XKR]

Smithers - I think you are perhaps thinking a bit too much using modern ways kits communicates - there have been detailed and simplistic answers, but if it's still not settling, you probably need to go back a bit and then re-learn it. Let's try a different way, bu looking at a few common devices that use MIDI to talk to each other.

First thing is that unlike USB connections, MIDI is one way only. If it needs to go back, then that is a separate cable.

Master keyboard - simple or complex, but it sends MIDI data out of it's MIDI out socket. There is no MIDI inout or MIDI thru - because all it does is originate notes and other messages.

Sound module - no keyboard, so think about the common modules Yamaha, Roland, Korg and others make/made. Clearly these have a MIDI input - and most have a MIDI thru socket too. When we were using lots of modules, they could be programmed to produce just one sound - maybe a piano module, or an organ module, or a complete one - that had loads of sounds - often over a hundred. 16 available channels and 100+ sounds means you could set the module to do a piano on channel 1, and something else on channel 2 etc. The thru socket as mentioned above, is simply a repeat of what is coming in - identical, so this can go to the next module. If this one has a MIDI thru, then that continues the chain.

Synths with keyboard - this is where we start to get the confusion - firstly, you could use this as a master keyboard - but because it is sending data, you use the MIDI out. The synth will play it's onboard sounds when you press keys, and that also goes to the next module if you have one. However, if your output is going to a DAW, then the problems start. That DAW has to speak to the other devices. Master keyboards mess this all up, because rarely do they have an input. A synth, used as a master keyboard DOES have a MIDI in, so the DAW could squirt the replay audio in that socket.

Right Rob, just let me get to basic principles. The MIDI transfer protocol is serial data transfer via the 5 pin din cables, it goes only one way and can not be transfered back via the same cable? Is that right? If I can get my head around that then I can start to understand. So MIDI out sends the data to the device and MIDI in receives it. Simple I apologise. MIDI thru sends the basic data thru the device without any other information from the connected device, ie the basic data from the master controller module goes straight through the expander to the reverb unit for example which speeds up the transfer of data?
Thanks Rob, sorry for being a muppet

 

[Smithers XKR]

Right Rob, just let me get to basic principles. The MIDI transfer protocol is serial data transfer via the 5 pin din cables, it goes only one way and can not be transfered back via the same cable? Is that right? If I can get my head around that then I can start to understand. So MIDI out sends the data to the device and MIDI in receives it. Simple I apologise. MIDI thru sends the basic data thru the device without any other information from the connected device, ie the basic data from the master controller module goes straight through the expander to the reverb unit for example which speeds up the transfer of data?
Thanks Rob, sorry for being a muppet

So MIDI thru is just like a clean bypass channel straight thru to the next piece of kit without involving it? I think I understand it more now. But.... does MIDI thru send information as well to the piece of kit it is bypassing... otherwise the master keyboard can not control the expander it bypasses to the reverb unit? Does the MIDI through function split the send signal to the receiving expander and also bypass to the reverb?

 

[Smithers XKR]

Smithers - I think you are perhaps thinking a bit too much using modern ways kits communicates - there have been detailed and simplistic answers, but if it's still not settling, you probably need to go back a bit and then re-learn it. Let's try a different way, bu looking at a few common devices that use MIDI to talk to each other.

First thing is that unlike USB connections, MIDI is one way only. If it needs to go back, then that is a separate cable.

Master keyboard - simple or complex, but it sends MIDI data out of it's MIDI out socket. There is no MIDI inout or MIDI thru - because all it does is originate notes and other messages.

Sound module - no keyboard, so think about the common modules Yamaha, Roland, Korg and others make/made. Clearly these have a MIDI input - and most have a MIDI thru socket too. When we were using lots of modules, they could be programmed to produce just one sound - maybe a piano module, or an organ module, or a complete one - that had loads of sounds - often over a hundred. 16 available channels and 100+ sounds means you could set the module to do a piano on channel 1, and something else on channel 2 etc. The thru socket as mentioned above, is simply a repeat of what is coming in - identical, so this can go to the next module. If this one has a MIDI thru, then that continues the chain.

Synths with keyboard - this is where we start to get the confusion - firstly, you could use this as a master keyboard - but because it is sending data, you use the MIDI out. The synth will play it's onboard sounds when you press keys, and that also goes to the next module if you have one. However, if your output is going to a DAW, then the problems start. That DAW has to speak to the other devices. Master keyboards mess this all up, because rarely do they have an input. A synth, used as a master keyboard DOES have a MIDI in, so the DAW could squirt the replay audio in that socket.

Sorry about this, I am hopeless

 

[Smithers XKR]

Sorry about this, I am hopeless

I think I need to get a tech specialist, I am a good guitar player and an ok piano player but I am shite with tech stuff.

 

[jking]

Sorry about this, I am hopeless

I build MIDI devices for a living, and this is also my first post. The difference between MIDI OUT and MIDI THRU is very simple, and I'll see if I can keep it that way in my explanation.

MIDI IN is obvious. Data comes in and the device can act on, or ignore, any part of that data.

MIDI OUT is for sending any data that the device itself generates and wants to send to others. It's the output for whatever MIDI data its micro-processor has been coded to send.

MIDI THRU is hard-wired directly to the MIDI IN. It's an electrical connection only. The device's processor doesn't involve itself with the data going out of this port in any way, shape or form, so it can't add anything it generates into that data stream. This also means that the device will not increase that data stream's jitter or latency. A physical MIDI THRU port is there to bypass the device's processing if you've determined that all the devices you place after the MIDI THRU will not need to be receiving any new data added by this device.

MIDI Soft THRU is a software feature for MIDI OUT so that the data that the device generates itself can be merged with the data coming from MIDI IN and resent. This all happens in the device's micro-processor and increases jitter and latency to some degree, which adds up to failure on a long enough series of Soft THRU connections.

Understanding the difference of each of these connections; understanding the work each of your devices need to perform and knowing which devices need to communicate with which, will allow you to build the best MIDI signal path. Or, do like everyone else does and just use MIDI Soft THRU until it fails and then add splitters before that happens. I'm serious. It's the norm because physical MIDI THRU ports on devices started to become rare. If you add a splitter just before the device that you wish had a MIDI THRU port, it's virtually the same thing.