Trying to understand MIDI thru

[Smithers XKR]

This has foxed me for a long time, I just could not get my head around it.

I have been running my controller into modules and effects using MIDI thru and I did not know the difference between that and MIDI out, it seemed to make no sense as everything was wired in series.

But then I looked at getting a MIDI thru box with the input and outputs in a parallel transfer box and the penny sort of dropped.

I think that if I am wiring it all with MIDI thru then the data transfer is sent to each piece of kit at the same time rather than a serial transfer through one at a time.

Is this right? It should be called MIDI serial or MIDI parallel data transfer which would be a lot easier to understand the terms.

Thanks ? ?

 

[DM60]

I think this gives a clear definition. https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/midi-thru/

MIDI out can change the data, MIDI thru passes it on without change.

 

[Smithers XKR]

This has foxed me for a long time, I just could not get my head around it.

I have been running my controller into modules and effects using MIDI thru and I did not know the difference between that and MIDI out, it seemed to make no sense as everything was wired in series.

But then I looked at getting a MIDI thru box with the input and outputs in a parallel transfer box and the penny sort of dropped.

I think that if I am wiring it all with MIDI thru then the data transfer is sent to each piece of kit at the same time rather than a serial transfer through one at a time.

Is this right? It should be called MIDI serial or MIDI parallel data transfer which would be a lot easier to understand the terms.

Thanks ? ?

Sorry if I have got things wrong, I am trying to get to grips with the whole MIDI data transfer thing.
The whole concept of MIDI thru just seems counter intuitive. You wire everything up in series yet you can use parallel data transfer where every piece of kit is sent the binary data at the same time.

I Hope this makes some sort of sense, any advice really appreciated ?

 

[Smithers XKR]

I think this gives a clear definition. https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/midi-thru/

MIDI out can change the data, MIDI thru passes it on without change.

Thanks DM, I sort of understand ish. Its just the bare bones of the data without any stuff from the piece of equipment sending.

Thanks

 

[DM60]

This is a guess, but MIDI is an 8 bit technology and is pretty slow. Since this was designed with MIDI hardware in mind. the MIDI thru was a way to speed things along, verses daisy chaining with MIDI out which would have to read the data to make sure there was nothing there for it. One could still daisy chain with MIDI out, but MIDI thru doesn't read the data and therefore doesn't slow it down.

 

[Smithers XKR]

I think this gives a clear definition. https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/midi-thru/

MIDI out can change the data, MIDI thru passes it on without change.

Right ok so its nothing to do with serial or parallel. Thanks DM I think I understand a bit more. Its the core data not influenced by the module sending it
??

 

[rob aylestone]

No - I think this often gets confused, every since MIDI started. MIDI THRU is simply a mirror of what comes in, so you usually connect the daisy chain connections from the first device - which could be a master keyboard or the output MIDI from a DAW - so the source of the MIDI goes into the first device MIDI IN. If it is a synth or sampler, then it looks for it's MIDI channel - lets say its a synth, and it is set up to receive on channel 1. Any incoming MIDI on ch 1 will be played by this device and goes to your mixer. Take a cable from the MIDI out, and connect that to the next device's MIDI in, say a Korg synth with built in keyboard. You've set this to only respond to MIDI ch 2. It will ignore the other 15 and make a noise when it sees ch 2 data. Now it gets clever. The MIDI thru can go to the next synth, lets say a drum module - using it's MIDI in. The drum module plays drums looking for notes on ch 10. HOWEVER - the MIDI out on your korg synth can go to your DAW/interface MDI in socket. Whatever you play on the korg makes a direct noise, or not if you turn midi local off - and your DAW can send this to any of the synths, INCLUDING itself!

So the MIDI thru contains none of what your device is producing, it's just a mirror of what comes in. The combination of ins outs or thru sockets is quite useful.

MID is entirely serial. not ever been a parallel connection type.

 

[Smithers XKR]

No - I think this often gets confused, every since MIDI started. MIDI THRU is simply a mirror of what comes in, so you usually connect the daisy chain connections from the first device - which could be a master keyboard or the output MIDI from a DAW - so the source of the MIDI goes into the first device MIDI IN. If it is a synth or sampler, then it looks for it's MIDI channel - lets say its a synth, and it is set up to receive on channel 1. Any incoming MIDI on ch 1 will be played by this device and goes to your mixer. Take a cable from the MIDI out, and connect that to the next device's MIDI in, say a Korg synth with built in keyboard. You've set this to only respond to MIDI ch 2. It will ignore the other 15 and make a noise when it sees ch 2 data. Now it gets clever. The MIDI thru can go to the next synth, lets say a drum module - using it's MIDI in. The drum module plays drums looking for notes on ch 10. HOWEVER - the MIDI out on your korg synth can go to your DAW/interface MDI in socket. Whatever you play on the korg makes a direct noise, or not if you turn midi local off - and your DAW can send this to any of the synths, INCLUDING itself!

So the MIDI thru contains none of what your device is producing, it's just a mirror of what comes in. The combination of ins outs or thru sockets is quite useful.

MID is entirely serial. not ever been a parallel connection type.

My head hurts

Thanks Rob, I am going to study your advice tomorrow when I am sober and try to get my head around it.
Many thanks mate ?

Smithers ???

 

[Smithers XKR]

No - I think this often gets confused, every since MIDI started. MIDI THRU is simply a mirror of what comes in, so you usually connect the daisy chain connections from the first device - which could be a master keyboard or the output MIDI from a DAW - so the source of the MIDI goes into the first device MIDI IN. If it is a synth or sampler, then it looks for it's MIDI channel - lets say its a synth, and it is set up to receive on channel 1. Any incoming MIDI on ch 1 will be played by this device and goes to your mixer. Take a cable from the MIDI out, and connect that to the next device's MIDI in, say a Korg synth with built in keyboard. You've set this to only respond to MIDI ch 2. It will ignore the other 15 and make a noise when it sees ch 2 data. Now it gets clever. The MIDI thru can go to the next synth, lets say a drum module - using it's MIDI in. The drum module plays drums looking for notes on ch 10. HOWEVER - the MIDI out on your korg synth can go to your DAW/interface MDI in socket. Whatever you play on the korg makes a direct noise, or not if you turn midi local off - and your DAW can send this to any of the synths, INCLUDING itself!

So the MIDI thru contains none of what your device is producing, it's just a mirror of what comes in. The combination of ins outs or thru sockets is quite useful.

MID is entirely serial. not ever been a parallel connection type.

But does the MIDI in not just mirror what comes in? sorry if I am stupid Rob ?
Please dumb it down, I am not trying to be funny honest mate. I dont understand the difference, sorry apologies

 

[Smithers XKR]

No - I think this often gets confused, every since MIDI started. MIDI THRU is simply a mirror of what comes in, so you usually connect the daisy chain connections from the first device - which could be a master keyboard or the output MIDI from a DAW - so the source of the MIDI goes into the first device MIDI IN. If it is a synth or sampler, then it looks for it's MIDI channel - lets say its a synth, and it is set up to receive on channel 1. Any incoming MIDI on ch 1 will be played by this device and goes to your mixer. Take a cable from the MIDI out, and connect that to the next device's MIDI in, say a Korg synth with built in keyboard. You've set this to only respond to MIDI ch 2. It will ignore the other 15 and make a noise when it sees ch 2 data. Now it gets clever. The MIDI thru can go to the next synth, lets say a drum module - using it's MIDI in. The drum module plays drums looking for notes on ch 10. HOWEVER - the MIDI out on your korg synth can go to your DAW/interface MDI in socket. Whatever you play on the korg makes a direct noise, or not if you turn midi local off - and your DAW can send this to any of the synths, INCLUDING itself!

So the MIDI thru contains none of what your device is producing, it's just a mirror of what comes in. The combination of ins outs or thru sockets is quite useful.

MID is entirely serial. not ever been a parallel connection type.

But there are boxes where you can split the signal into parallel transfer, I need one from my SMPTE and the controller piano into the MIDI in on my Atari ST

 

[rob aylestone]

No - they're just MIDI splitters - one in, and 3 or 4 outs. Serial and Parallel connections are totally different. Printer and drive sockets on computers were often parallel - they had multiple lines (often 8) that were sent at the same time - so faster. Serial, was a sequential data system, so was slower.

A MIDI splitter is just multiple identical outputs. I have a couple of 16 channel MIDI devices 16 MIDI sockets, that the DAW can talk to separately.

There is a phenomenon called MIDI choke. When we were using all 16 MIDI channels in long chains, if somebody went wild on the pitch bend, then every tiny position change on the knob sent data - and wiggling them could send thousands of separate pitch bend messages. Serial interfaces send these one at a time, so the note on messages would be queued up behind pitch bend ones, and be late. As delays on the ch 10 drum channel would be most badly impacted, ch10 was always sent first - which helped a bit. Back then, DAWs or sequencers as we knew them then, often had MIDI thinning commands which would look for pitch bend and modulation and throw a few messages away - so if the messages were going 10,11,12,13,14,15,16 on the pitch bend lever, they might just ignore the odd ones, halving the data, speeding things up. Now we bang on about latency, in the 80s/90s we complained about MIDI delay.

 

[Smithers XKR]

No - I think this often gets confused, every since MIDI started. MIDI THRU is simply a mirror of what comes in, so you usually connect the daisy chain connections from the first device - which could be a master keyboard or the output MIDI from a DAW - so the source of the MIDI goes into the first device MIDI IN. If it is a synth or sampler, then it looks for it's MIDI channel - lets say its a synth, and it is set up to receive on channel 1. Any incoming MIDI on ch 1 will be played by this device and goes to your mixer. Take a cable from the MIDI out, and connect that to the next device's MIDI in, say a Korg synth with built in keyboard. You've set this to only respond to MIDI ch 2. It will ignore the other 15 and make a noise when it sees ch 2 data. Now it gets clever. The MIDI thru can go to the next synth, lets say a drum module - using it's MIDI in. The drum module plays drums looking for notes on ch 10. HOWEVER - the MIDI out on your korg synth can go to your DAW/interface MDI in socket. Whatever you play on the korg makes a direct noise, or not if you turn midi local off - and your DAW can send this to any of the synths, INCLUDING itself!

So the MIDI thru contains none of what your device is producing, it's just a mirror of what comes in. The combination of ins outs or thru sockets is quite useful.

MID is entirely serial. not ever been a parallel connection type.

You know what Rob? I am completely out of my depth with recording gear. I should not have assembled this stuff. I should have just stuck with the Atari and the Korg X5 and the Yamaha MT8X... that is my limit of technical ability. I am a good guitar player and not bad on keys.. I should just stick to what I can do best. Thanks for the advice mate ?

 

[Smithers XKR]

No - they're just MIDI splitters - one in, and 3 or 4 outs. Serial and Parallel connections are totally different. Printer and drive sockets on computers were often parallel - they had multiple lines (often 8) that were sent at the same time - so faster. Serial, was a sequential data system, so was slower.

A MIDI splitter is just multiple identical outputs. I have a couple of 16 channel MIDI devices 16 MIDI sockets, that the DAW can talk to separately.

There is a phenomenon called MIDI choke. When we were using all 16 MIDI channels in long chains, if somebody went wild on the pitch bend, then every tiny position change on the knob sent data - and wiggling them could send thousands of separate pitch bend messages. Serial interfaces send these one at a time, so the note on messages would be queued up behind pitch bend ones, and be late. As delays on the ch 10 drum channel would be most badly impacted, ch10 was always sent first - which helped a bit. Back then, DAWs or sequencers as we knew them then, often had MIDI thinning commands which would look for pitch bend and modulation and throw a few messages away - so if the messages were going 10,11,12,13,14,15,16 on the pitch bend lever, they might just ignore the odd ones, halving the data, speeding things up. Now we bang on about latency, in the 80s/90s we complained about MIDI delay.

you have to load the accummulator with FF

 

[Smithers XKR]

you have to load the accummulator with FF

LDA FF and then 1E

 

[rob aylestone]

No joke actually - back then we really did need to use hexadecimal. Especially when Yamaha invented XG and Roland GS.

ST 520 had two sockets and tried to do the out/thru thing in software.

At it's most basic, MIDI out sent data to a MIDI in. If that device had a MIDI thru, that was simply a mirror of when cam in. It DID NOT add anything the connected device did - so if you had a synth and MIDI came in it played it, if you bashed the keys - that didn't come out of the thru output, it came out of the out, and the out did not have anything of the stuff coming in.

 

[Smithers XKR]

No - they're just MIDI splitters - one in, and 3 or 4 outs. Serial and Parallel connections are totally different. Printer and drive sockets on computers were often parallel - they had multiple lines (often 8) that were sent at the same time - so faster. Serial, was a sequential data system, so was slower.

A MIDI splitter is just multiple identical outputs. I have a couple of 16 channel MIDI devices 16 MIDI sockets, that the DAW can talk to separately.

There is a phenomenon called MIDI choke. When we were using all 16 MIDI channels in long chains, if somebody went wild on the pitch bend, then every tiny position change on the knob sent data - and wiggling them could send thousands of separate pitch bend messages. Serial interfaces send these one at a time, so the note on messages would be queued up behind pitch bend ones, and be late. As delays on the ch 10 drum channel would be most badly impacted, ch10 was always sent first - which helped a bit. Back then, DAWs or sequencers as we knew them then, often had MIDI thinning commands which would look for pitch bend and modulation and throw a few messages away - so if the messages were going 10,11,12,13,14,15,16 on the pitch bend lever, they might just ignore the odd ones, halving the data, speeding things up. Now we bang on about latency, in the 80s/90s we complained about MIDI delay.

Going back to my plough ??????

 

[Smithers XKR]

No joke actually - back then we really did need to use hexadecimal. Especially when Yamaha invented XG and Roland GS.

ST 520 had two sockets and tried to do the out/thru thing in software.

At it's most basic, MIDI out sent data to a MIDI in. If that device had a MIDI thru, that was simply a mirror of when cam in. It DID NOT add anything the connected device did - so if you had a synth and MIDI came in and played it, if you bashed the keys that didn't come out of the thru output, it came out of the out, and the out did not have anything of the stuff coming in.

Nice one

 

[Smithers XKR]

No joke actually - back then we really did need to use hexadecimal. Especially when Yamaha invented XG and Roland GS.

ST 520 had two sockets and tried to do the out/thru thing in software.

At it's most basic, MIDI out sent data to a MIDI in. If that device had a MIDI thru, that was simply a mirror of when cam in. It DID NOT add anything the connected device did - so if you had a synth and MIDI came in it played it, if you bashed the keys - that didn't come out of the thru output, it came out of the out, and the out did not have anything of the stuff coming in.

I have hit a brick wall with my home recording studio and I need some help..
Do you do consultancy work Rob?

 

[TAE]

Think a hose and water ....
Lets say you want the water to go to the pool and also to the spa.

You connect the hose to the pool which has a special adapter that has water in, water through, and water out

The water from the hose bib (Lets call it a midi sequencer in your computer).... that water goes to that special adapter in the pool ( lets say a midi keyboard) and also through to the spa (A midi module) ..they both get the same water ( messages) that came from the hose bib ( computer sequencer ). Now the out only gets water that came from the pool that someone pissed in ( Ok you played some notes and sent those midi messages out) Those messages will not go to the midi module that is connected to the through it is only getting clean water from the hose bib...no piss water.......However if you connect that midi out line to another midi module that will play the notes you played on your controller ( pissy water )

 

[Smithers XKR]

I have hit a brick wall with my home recording studio and I need some help..
Do you do consultancy work Rob?

I have a lot assembled and in place... struggling with all of the wiring and geting started. Atari with HDD and Score 3.1, basic Cakewalk DAW, Stage piano, Korg X5 keyboard, condensor mikes, guitars and amps, outboard gear.... Roland JV1080, Alesis Midiverb 4, patchbay, Yamaha MG16 desk, stereo graphic, stereo compressor/composer, SMPTE, Stereo crossover, Akai S2000 sampler, 2 x Alesis ADAT (yes I know they are junk).
Just need some tech help