Trying to Master with the ART Pro VLA II

  • Thread starter Thread starter jimthepisces
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The main problem I keep having is creating big spiky transients out front. Sometimes, I'm abe to tweak stuff to where they don't happen, but I have make the compression be so light, its practically non existent. And most of the time, I can't seem to get rid of them at all. Even cranking the attack all the way closed doesn't stop them. I was warned the opto compressor might be too slow. Do I need get a delay and do look ahead compression? I'm thinking about getting a DBX 160X, but I can't decide whether to return the VLA to fund that, or wait until I have more money.
 
tonesponge said:
The main problem I keep having is creating big spiky transients out front. Sometimes, I'm abe to tweak stuff to where they don't happen, but I have make the compression be so light, its practically non existent. And most of the time, I can't seem to get rid of them at all. Even cranking the attack all the way closed doesn't stop them. I was warned the opto compressor might be too slow. Do I need get a delay and do look ahead compression? I'm thinking about getting a DBX 160X, but I can't decide whether to return the VLA to fund that, or wait until I have more money.
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Are you talking about mix compression again? -I don't have that thing but I would assume .25ms would be fast enough to catch bass.
Also, you do understand that catching peaks is going to be quite a different setup than other general compression duities? Often you might want a bit of both. -Follow with a limiter plug for the really sharp stuff maybe.
 
I agree with mixsit and ask the same questions. I also add to the mix (so to speak) the question of whether the peaks actually need to be flattened out? Is there a sonic problem there or is it just that you think that the peaks should not be there because you can see them?

What is the source of the peaks? Is it something that's hitting the recording because of bad technique, or is it truly extra-high dynamic source? If it's the former, if you can re-track, try working on technique to get rid of them. If it's the later, again the question is whether those peaks are actually a real problem or just a visually perceived problem.

Or maybe they are they in the mixdown tracks and caused by the summing of a small handful of more innocuous peaks in the individual tracks? If so, I'd fit go back and try knocking them down a bit in the individual tracks before mixing, not with compression or limiting, but with manual editing or manually adjusted automation. Or try doing the same thing in the mixdown tracks.

If they're in the mixdown, but there's just way to many of them to bother manually editing, then I'd wonder if maybe you're just trying to mix too hot and you just need to bring the overall levels of the individual tracks down a couple of dB.

Underneath all this is that you really shouldn't need very often to use compression/limiting for peak control; if you do, there may be something else to consider.

Unless you're talking mastering for final volume, in wich case you're probably better off just using a
simple limiter plug set to a couple of dB peak reduction.

G.
 
I'm talking about compressing bass guitar during tracking for tone. A lot of bass players compress for tone (and prefer a hard knee), and I think my bass lines sound a lot tighter when I compress them, especially with a hard knee. That's all I'm doing right now, is figuring out how to track better bass lines. The guys at Talkbass keep telling me to get the DBX160X, but I'm reluctant to get an expensive (to me) compresser where I can't adjust the attack and release settings. I'd have to return the VLA to fund the DBX purchase right now, so I'm just trrying to figure out of there is a way to use the VLA to get what I'm looking for. For example, using the VLA for very light compression with a slow attack and adding a cheap hard limiter between the VLA and the interface, or using a very low ratio and adding a delay for look ahead compression.
 
Personally, I think it's hard to beat the warmth and smoothness you can get from the bass via the VLA. Like I said, if those peaks are an *audible* problem, that's one thing. If you're just worried that they don't look right, you're worried about the wrong thing.

If those transients are coming from pick noise or slap bass or something like that, then that's a function of the playing style and/or pick and strings used. The question then is, is that the sound you want? If so, then the peaks probably need to be there. If not, then changes upsteam before the compressor might be in order.

The VLA also has the advantage of being great for vocals and pre-mastering. The bass boys may like the dbx for bass, but given the choice, it's not what I personally would go to for vocals, and just doesn't have the same LA-2A-ish sound for premastering that the VLA has.

It's your call. Maybe those bass boys are onto a bass boy "favorite" that I am not privy to, and maybe that's what you really want your compressor for. But IMHO, there's no reason why you can't get a great bass sound out of the VLA *and* a better sound from it for other purposes as well than you could ever get from the dbx.

Just IMHO; YMMV, VLA, DBX, Void Where Prohibited, Expert Driver on Closed Course, etc.

G.
 
tonesponge said:
...The guys at Talkbass keep telling me to get the DBX160X, but I'm reluctant to get an expensive (to me) compresser where I can't adjust the attack and release settings. I'd have to return the VLA to fund the DBX purchase right now, ..
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A couple things here ..interesting.
I looked this up as I have a pretty good feel for the 160x as a 'fast comp but not truly as a hard peak stopper –

160A Specs :: dbx® Professional Products

They actually indicate it may be not as fast as the VLA (..again these things may be measured and specd' differently though for all I know)
But I'm still trying to figure why they wouldn't be fast enough for bass. (I know the dbx is sound wise. A question again might be 'Is there indeed a bit of front end spike left on it, but it is in fact doing the job –ie sounds good!
Sometimes, I'm abe to tweak stuff to where they don't happen, but I have make the compression be so light, its practically non existent..
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This I didn't understand. For peaks it's high ratio, appropriate threshold. Not the same as allowing some attack but leveling out the body of the playing. A compromise might be fast attack and very low ratio, appropriate threshold.
The dbx is fast enough for that, an industry standard known 'can't go wrong working solution. (..In general, dbx's auto mode is tough to beat.
– It will not however let you do some of the other things we like to do when we want the option to tailor the envelope.
.. so I'm just trying to figure out of there is a way to use the VLA to get what I'm looking for. For example, using the VLA for very light compression with a slow attack and adding a cheap hard limiter between the VLA and the interface, or using a very low ratio and adding a delay for look ahead compression.
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You are proposing split you signal, straight goes to the side chain, through a delay unit on the audio path side, to pick up some 'zero attack time- I've never done that.
I'm still trying to see why you'd need to though.
 
I'm guessing here that there's a confusion in the meaning of "fast". There's how quickly the compressor begins to react, and there's how quickly the compressor reaches full compression after it begins reacting. Even if the VLA can start reacting faster, the "ballistics" of it's optical/varistor design tend to be smoother and slower than that of your typical VCA design. That's a good part of what gives optical/varistor designs their signature sound. Whether that's actually the case between the VLA and the dbx, I don't know for sure; but that's my guess.

G.
 
Allright. That's very helpful. My thoughts were that the VLA would be a lot more versatile, and I might still want an analog comp that can do hard knee and an analog hard limiter at some point, but I hate to give up the VLA in the meantime. It just seems to be very good for the price and useful, "they" say, for everything except drums. Is that becaseu the knee is so soft? Is that what makes it too "slow" for drums?

I'll keep experimenting with it and see what I can learn.
 
I don't know who "they" are, but we've used the VLA very successfully on drums. There's not a compressor made that can't be used successfully in some way on any given track that could benefit from compression. It all depends on what you want from it.

If you're looking for a limiter, then no, the VLA is probably not your best choice. But if you're looking for a limiter, use a limiter.

G.
 
I went ahead and got a used DBX 166XL off ebay. People seem to think it makes a decent limiter, and I'll be able to compare the VCA compression function of the 166XL to the VLA and learn a little, maybe.
 
On top of that being a pretty decent full featured unit, it will be a instructional as you can get a taste of man-vs-dbx 'auto vs VLA.
I'm still curious.. These bass peaks, are they a sonic problem, or a mater of control and visual curiousity?
2nd, do you not do anything post tracking, or ITB with plugs?
 
The transients aren't a big deal as long as I limit them out in the box. I'm just trying to get a bass rig setup that I can record with AND play live, so I don't want to rely on effects in the box to get the punchy tone I'm looking for in my bass rig.

There's this one guy at Talkbass that everyone considers the expert on bass compression, and he had this to say about getting a punchy tone:

Make it punchy

It's part of his FAQ, which is Compressor and Audio Gear FAQ

And then he has a bunch of compresser reviews here Compressor Reviews

So you see where I'm getting some of my information. Maybe you have some thoughts about the direction. I'm a bit surprised he recommends a compression ratio of 8:1. That seems nigh unto limiting right there. And his drawing of a waveform looks like it got hard limited too, except for the attack window. But that peak on the front end is really small, so maybe it should be high ratio, with very little reduction on the meter.
 
Tone is in the fingers. I know quite a few full-time, pro bass players, including ones who have played for some pretty big name acts, and not one of them has ever had anything in the live rig between their bass and their amp other than an instrument cable.

So you're asking the wrong guy if you're looking for advice on that kind of stuff. Sorry.

G.
 
Well, all I can say is that when I record bass direct from the amp into protools and throw a compression plugin on it with a hard knee, I get what I'm looking for. Not so much with a soft knee. Do you think maybe what I'm doing is an approximation of a speaker sym?

Anyway, I won a bid on a house recently, so I'll be able to start micing my cabs soon. You know I'm looking forward to that, but I'm dreading shelling out 3-6K for room treatment.
 
Playing live and recording are two different animals that often dictate different needs. We were - or at least I was - talking right there about live playing.

No question that recording bass direct very often wants compression to level everything out, even with the best bass players. I wouldn't go so far as to call it an amp or cab sim, because there's a lot more to simulating a cab than that, but electric instruments played though speaker cabinets do tend to go through a kind of natural leveling not completely unlike compression, so in that way there is a common property between the two.


And while I would never tell anybody not do up room treatment right, there's no reason why you should have to spend that much to get an effective-sounding room, if you use your head.

G.
 
Hi everyone, I have had first hand experience with the ART Pro VLA II, my thoughts on the device is that for
mastering or 2 bus duties the compressor is very audible indeed. The gain reduction is triggered heavily
by low frequency instrumentation and this coupled with a rather slow release makes the compressor too
heavy handed IMO. It's a nice compressor for the money for mono sources but not desirable for stereo mix bus.
(It does not have side chain inputs either reducing it's flexibility further)

cheers

Barry
 
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I had one here (and I'm actually thinking about getting one again) just for parallel use. I liked it for that. Otherwise, yeah - A bit of a footprint for typical use.
 
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