Trying to get set up for recording project

[Timjuillet]

Hi All!

This is I believe my first post on this forum. I've been chipping away at piecing together a decent studio set-up over the last couple years. Running Cubase Artist while using a focusrite interface. I've built a good start up list of softwares (Waves Diamond, and Soundsonline composer bundles, auto-tune, etc). Don't know how to use it yet, but will work on it.

Here is the project: I am composing a major work which will be mostly choral/4 part harmony. I plan to record my church choir, and I will use my EWQL software to record virtual orchestral tracks. -and here is how I plan to record my choir:

I'm going to purchase the Art Headamp Pro for headphone monitoring, and I plan to record each section one at a time. So as example, I'll record the basses during one session, and then the tenors ,etc... The individual sections of my choir (I am a church choir director) are uneven. So I'm thinking that my best balance can be found by recording each section separately. 20 people total are in our choir, so about 5 per section.

I'm wondering if any of you have feedback for me on this. I plan to pick up one of those relexion filters that attach to the mic stand and sit behind the mic for sound reinforcement. Maybe hang some blankets behind that as well.

I know usually when choirs are recorded, they are recorded as a group. And they aren't recorded usually with a single mic. Is that correct.

Any feedback would be appreciated. I'm using an Xml Conderser mic, and am not sure if I'll use a pop filter, because the choir singers will be standing far enough away from the mic to avoid popping sounds.

Thank you,

Tim Juillet

 

[miroslav]

Mmmmmm.....not that I've done choral/choir recording all that much (a couple of times way back), and if I understand you correctly and your plan....
....I'm not sure that recording individual sections of the group separately is going to work well, if you are then planning to somehow put it all together later.
IMO....a choral group/choir should be done at one shot....granted, you need a bunch of mics, channels...etc....but you will NEVER get the interaction and subtle vocal timing between the sections to gel...if you do them one section at a time.
Maybe someone here has done it and made it work, and they can provide the details....but to me, recording sections separately would be the same as recording strummed guitar chords one note/string at a time, and then trying to put the notes together to then make chords.

At most, I would maybe separate the sections a bit, so as to have some, well, seperation....and put up a mic or two per section, let them form around the mics....but, let them sing together as a complete chroal group...and record them that way. If you can let them form the way they nornally do, and position your mics that way, then go with that....and "love the bleed".

 

[Timjuillet]

I greatly appreciate your feedback. My challenge is that I own a small focusrite 2i4 which only has two input channels. Looks like I need to pick up something that has either 4 or 8 inputs... As I'm considering your feedback, I'm agreeing totally. It will come out way better.. Just a challenge to put together the equipment to do it that way.

 

[rob aylestone]

You seem a bit mixed up, technique wise. The reflections filters are great for a single singer, a foot or so away from the mic. For more than one person they don't work, and you need space.

There are plenty of ways that work. Your idea to record the sections is typical of how we record performance backing tracks with limited numbers of people. To make it work you arrange the group around one or two mics, for either mono recording, that can be placed as a group in a mix later, or as a stereo track that will have a bit more realism in the mix. You can hang up duvets on stands to try to tame the room sound and recording wise, it works. There are BIG snags though. You need enough headphones and kit so they can hear the music and the other sections, once they are recorded. Without this, your timing will be all over the place. Don't rely on conducting. If you can put together the monitoring kit as in headphones, headphone distribution amps etc, then it works. You need to be able to move them during the rehearsal to get the prominent voices away from the mic and the weak ones forward, but it works ok with practice. If you have the equipment you could multi mic but the benefits are small, and you cannot really get good separation, and you can't re-use your best singers. A stereo input system is fine, it really is. Personally, I'd probably record the four parts first, as a guide, then use this for each section to sing to, one by one, building up multiple takes, tagging each one as good or bad as they go. I colour code them in cubase. Green is best, red is awful, and colours in between show me the range. It's then quite possible to cut bits from them where mistake occur, and build up a composite recording. Once you add in subtle ambience from a reverb, put the sections into the left-right space, and do the balance, you will have an excellent product. Ideally you want as dead a space to record in as possible.

It could be done like a real concert, in stereo with a coincident pair, but unless they sound good like this naturally, then some trickery will be needed. I'm recording a choir shortly section by section like this because from the rehearsals, the chances of them getting it right in all four sections at the same time are remote. The director is also keen to use some singers in soprano and alto sections, and double up, maybe treble up the basses, who are tuneful but very weak.

 

[miroslav]

.... then some trickery will be needed.

Vocal backing tracks for songs aside.....with a choral group/choir, are you running some sort of cue mix and/or timming to them when you record them in sections....or do you plan on editing it afterwards to make it sync?

I can see making the entire choir sing/record sections of the piece, and then editing that together....but I'm curious how you would break up the choir, make each of them them sing sections or the whole piece, and then put that together without some involved editing....?

I guess, if you can get an involved headphone setup for that many people, then it might be esier to just isolate the sections of the choir....but still let them sing in unison and monitor through the headphones.
The OP is working off of one 2-channel interface.....not sure how easily he'll be bale to do an involved mic/cue mix setup.

 

[Bop Stop Studio]

Yep most would track that with the chorus all together and use a ORTF, MS, etc..... stereo recording at distance, and maybe some up close mics in front for soloist parts. Also, most would do it in the hall u use or rent another nice sounding church etc... for the natural reverb and big room feel that is typically heard with a chorus.

The difficulty outside of knowing what you doing with mic placement, having good mics and good pres with lots of clean gain for the low signal, is having the right gear. It needs hi gain on the mic pres, so many can get noisy when jacked up that hi even if they go there, same for mics.

So the many use ultra clean pres, grace, millennia, etc... with Shoeps, DPA, mics, etc...
My wife is the accompanist/pianist for a small vocal chorus in Boston, called Voices Rising.org , if you are interested in hearing some samples, they have some on their website.

I don't do the tracking for them and I will leave the names out of it, But usually, the engineer comes from CT and uses, what looks good but not necessarily the pricey gear I mentioned above. He gets good results with a Firepod (maybe another 2 channel as well), maybe 3-4 STEREO PAIRS, AND A FEW SOLO mics, such as 2 AKB 414S, 2 Neumann TLMs, even some cheaper AKG C2000 looks like and a few others, some very nice some OK.

The fire pod is cheap and has same clean gain, not tons and not for ribbon mics, but it certainly can work and this guy is a pro full time engineer.

The most recent one was from boston area and I know he was nominated for a grammy and has a beautiful classical based hi ceiling, big room studio, which is not common. He did come with top pres (I think millennia and/or sound devices) and DPA, Shoeps mics, etc... and yielded a slightly better sound in opinion, a little more vocal in front with his mix, If I were mixing it would be somewhere in the middle of these two engineers.

Point is, these are just examples and hope they help, I am sure there are tons of Pro choirs to check out, but I would think most do it this way.

All that being said, if u are limited to overdubbing it might work out well, but seems a lot of extra unnatural interfacing such as headphones, isolation, and lack of a big open sound. Also mixing the parts and not singing together organically will be potentially a challenge.

I assume there is a conductor, it might be a challenge for them as well or at least something different.

If I were u I would get as many mics, of quality as I could gather and begin to experiment with tracking it naturally and see what you get with different mics, and placements. I might even forgo spending lots of money until I get the skills, so I might actually rent a few nice mics and pres, if u don;t have them and begin to work at it. As this will be the direction u likely will head if your serious about tracking choirs in general. Spending lot of dough on in home gear to track in isolation might get u there, but once u do u might realize I was building my gear for the wrong purposes. I would get a Metric Halo, and as many nice mics as I could get. Clean sound is key, not colored pres or mics. I mean Api sounds great and would work for example, but not maybe the most ideal etc...

You can find lots of info about these tracking methods if u search in areas of classical recordings and vocal chorus recordings. Most of it again is remote on-site recording. Many do not have tracking rooms in there studios, just mixing and mastering gear and do all the tracking on site. Many rent churches for focussed projects, to get the big open sound and to use their grand piano.

Best of luck and have fun!
Love hear what you get.

 

[miroslav]

Also mixing the parts and not singing together organically will be potentially a challenge.

I assume there is a conductor, it might be a challenge for them as well or at least something different.

Yeah...that's what I was getting at.
I mean....if you have "surgical skills" in the DAW, you can probbaly splice just about anything and "make it work".......but with a choral group/choir, the "singing together" vibe, that includes the space, the intonation, the timing, and the overal blend/bleed of the whole group.....would be key, I would think.