Trying to decide on a new guitar amp... anyone hate Marshalls or have a better sugges

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foo said:
Matchless?
I spent about half an hour with one in a store in Minneapolis about two years ago. It was 30 watts and 2 x 12 (I think)

My recollection is that it sounded great - like a Vox AC30 - only more so.

Really crystal and glassy clean, and a nice soft overdrive at a little more volume.

Expensive, but not any more so than any other 'boutique' amp.

foo
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a good friend uses a Matchless 2x12 twin, after many years of everything else. He does a wide variety of gigs and feels the Matchless gives him the versatility that he needs. I love the tones it puts out. I thought it was different size speakers in the twin but its different wattages.
 
LocusLarsen, Why the hostility? I could care less what you do. If you want to pick apart my argument, that's fine, but personal attacks are out of place.

There is a difference....otherwise they wouldn't make them.
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Yes, it's called profit.
 
They also add features to the higher powered heads. The AVT 100 has an extra overdrive channel over the AVT 50, and the AVT 150 adds yet another, and both have digital effects.

There is a reason why Marshall doesn't make a higher powered version of the AVT 50 without extra features... it's because higher powered models don't sound much different, and they wouldn't be as appealing if they didn't have a bunch of extra knobs.
 
Charger,
I'm not trying to be hostile, but I think it's more than just profit. It seems to me that all else equal - meaning same amp, same settings, same speaker cabinet, etc. - an amp with 4 power tubes would have a different sound quality than with 2 power tubes. The ratio of power tubes to everything else would be different. If I'm missing something, please explain.

And when I did try a comparison (on a 25 acre farm in the middle of nowhere) I did hear a difference. It sounded better with 4 tubes, and it really didn't sound any louder.

I do agree with you about the value of low wattage amps. The problem with 100 watt amps (or 50 watt amps for that matter) is that you NEVER get to crank them. Hell, I use an attenuator for my 30 watt Boogie.

I use the attenuator with my 100 watt Marshall too, but I do run it at 100 watts rather than 50 because I think it sounds better.
 
And when I did try a comparison (on a 25 acre farm in the middle of nowhere) I did hear a difference. It sounded better with 4 tubes, and it really didn't sound any louder.
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It does sound different. There's more headroom, which (depending on the type of amp) can mean better bass, better treble, a more solid feel. In the 50 watt, the tubes are being pushed into distortion at a lower volume, so at similar volumes to a 100 watt (even though I agree, 3dB is not a lot when you really hear it) the 50 watt will sound less firm in the bass, with a softer high end, and a little more compressed. It's not that there is no difference, it's just that you can get the same sound out of the 50 watt, but the volume will have to be 3db less, and if it's a choice between one sound and another virtually identical sound with 3dB of difference, the human ear prefers the louder sound.

My point was not that there is no difference, it was that 99% of people will never use their 50 or 100 watt amp full out, except, like you say, for experiments... at more reasonable volumes, those 2 extra power tubes are going to be unimportant. I truly believe that most guitarists need 30-40 watts max, unless they are playing in places that have no PA.
 
I play in a 5 piece band with the loudest drummer I've ever heard. We usually run MESA triple recs. I've jammed using a 1987 (year) Marshall Lead 12 head --- a 12 watt head from one of those mini full-stack things. Running this through my 8 ohm 412 boogie cab loaded with 90 watt speakers fucking cranks. I mean the tone wasn't all there, but the volume was sufficient. I would be able to play a hall show with it. Just another point proving that minimal wattage can be really loud.
 
Charger...

You seem to be pretty experienced in the inner-workings of an amp. I do appreaciate the hell out of EVERYONE'S responses. And since you guys can all see that I do WANT THIS FUCKING AMP, it would be easy for me to just stick with the people on here that support me getting it, and ignore the opposition (you know ol' G.W. Bush style :) ). But I can see that Charger knows a lot about amps and I want to ask you all some basic questions about recording.

For a monsterous huge distortion where do you guys record? I mean do people really crank their amps up to 10 in the studio? The reason I ask, is that I will have a completely sound proof practice space to record in. I can crank that puppy up until my ears bleed. But I also have a really nice set of SONY MDR-7509 sealed back headphones. So my ears will be safe and snug as a bug in a rug. I will be micing with a Shure SM-57, into a MOTU 24 I/O, into a Mac running Logic Audio Plat. 6. The mic pre-amp is a Focusrite ISA-428 (some seriously sweet mic pre).

Anyway, what I have had in mind the whole time, was to crank the amp up as loud as possible for the distorted parts, then put the SM-57 in front of a speaker, with the pre-amp turned down to zero, then slowly raise the gain on the pre-amp until the incoming signal gets to bumping the hot zone without going into the red and clipping.

But I have never recorded a mic'ed guitar before and I have never used an SM-57 for it (obviously). So my question is... if this mic is placed just inches away from a thunderingly overdriven Marshall speaker... will the SM-57 have like a nervous breakdown and sound like shit (or even worse, be damaged)?

Now, I am REALLY hoping that you guys can take a look at the attenuator switch on this TSL122 combo from marshall. It is a 100 Watt amp but when you push in this button it is reduced to 25 watts. I have no clue about power management or anything of the sort. Is this attenuator switch really reducing the amp's wattage or is it like a digital modelling switch that "simulatoes" an over driver 25 watt amp?
Because if this switch will really turn a 100 watt amp into a 25 watt amp (as the marketing blurbs suggest) then I don't even understand what the problem here is. So, please do not just give me you opinion... tell me what you KNOW about this 25 watt switch.
i can imagine that if we are playing in a small Athens Georgia club (where there are a LOT of small clubs) then the sound man is going to want me to turn down a 100 watt amp, thus choking out my FAT ASS MONSTER SOUND that I want. Will this 25 watt switch save the day and give me that sound at a lower volume level. I mean, Marshall seem to be pretty damn proud of this switch so I will not listen to yomeone that says, "Man that is just a gimmick." So, please explain whay, if you think it is worthless.

Thanks guys... you are the fucking best. I am really sweating this decission.
 
I wouldn't record with any fake power mode BS. Your place is sound proof so crank that master volume up to 10 and adjust the gain accordingly. The 57 will handle it with ease.



Lets face the facts here. It doesn't matter if the power switch destroys you tone because 99.999999999999% of small clubs have a sound system that is built out of a pile of shit. The room acoustics are going to be like a damn garage, if that, and no one there even has the slightest idea that you sound is pure overdrive, with not a single bit of distortion.

Sorry to be so morbid.
 
Lets face the facts here. It doesn't matter if the power switch destroys you tone because 99.999999999999% of small clubs have a sound system that is built out of a pile of shit. The room acoustics are going to be like a damn garage, if that, and no one there even has the slightest idea that you sound is pure overdrive, with not a single bit of distortion.
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LocusLarson has a very good point. I just want a great sounding amp for recording (no matter how fucking loud it is). For gigs, it is true that no matter if I have a pristine Marshall or a $50 used ripped speaker Yamaha practice amp. The room will sound like shit, and the PA will probably be something out of the 70's.
 
So, please do not just give me you opinion... tell me what you KNOW about this 25 watt switch.
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I am completely and totally unfamiliar with that switch. It's an all-tube amp, so running it at a "real" 25 watts would mean ONE power tube, and that would be pretty much impossible, without a complete reconfiguration of the internal circuitry. So my "educated guess" is that it uses some sort of attenuator to lower the volume. This would be similar to a THD Hotplate or Marshall's own Power Brake, which are basically large resistors that you can siphon off some of the output power to. These have been used for a long time to solve the problem that power tubes really only distort when they're turned way up, and when the power tubes are turned way up, the amp is too loud. Attenuator systems work pretty well, but they do change the overall frequency balance of your sound.

Note that there are other, cheaper ways this can be done, like just limiting the range of the controls through circuitry.

Bottom line is, you will not know if the amp sounds good in this mode until you listen to it. Marshall provides sparse documentation... Hearing it is the best option anyway.

As far as your recording setup goes, you need to get the best sound out of your amp, period. That doesn't mean cranking it to ten, that means finding the best sound. The JCM2000s have a lot more gain than previous Marshalls in the preamp stage, and don't need to be cranked the way a JCM800 does to get lots of distortion. However, cranked might be the sound you're looking for. The best thing to do is plug in, stand in the room, and mess with the controls until you get a sound that works for you. And don't worry about an SM57 being able to handle loud sound; remember, these mics are the snare mic of nearly universal choice, and nothing has louder transients than a snare drum. Also, note that the TSL122 has two different types of speakers (a Vintage 30 and a 12H, I think), so unfortunately you're going ot have to get your head down there and listen to them blasting to figure out which one sounds better (even though my money's on the Vintage, this might not be your preference).
 
OMG! Putting your head down there is the STUPIDEST thing I have ever heard.

DO NOT DO THAT!

What you hear is NOT what a mic hears. Put the mic down there, record a couple seconds and see how it sounds. Then move it a bit and check that one. ...or better yet, have a friend move the mic while someone else plays the guitar and you sit in the control room directing the action. You have a band.......so you have plenty of people to do this. In turn you help them place the drum overheads and what-not.

What kind of advise is that!?!?!?!?! Put you head buy a fucking speaker?!?!!? Thats fucked up..............:mad:
 
yeah, I'm STUPID

No, it's not STUPID advice. Ask any professional how they get great guitar sounds, and they say that every time. I'm not saying that it's good for your hearing, but it's what pros do. I've been through enough studios and talked to enough pro engineers to know.

I am beginning to really not appreciate your attacks on me. Since it's clear that you have no respect for me or my opinion, and since you clearly understand how to get perfect guitar sounds already, I'll leave the explanations of techniques that you do not endorse to the experts...

This is the point at which we start to separate the boys from the men. Spend just a few more moments with somebody twisting the MV up and down slowly and do a couple of things(and this is gonna suck) take the plugs out for just a minute and at the point of 'excursion' FIND THE BEST SPEAKER. Eek. My LEAST favorite part of ALL dirt guitar recording.

I'm not even gonna tell you what to do.... Nobody should have to do it. Just do it. Stick yer fucking coconut in there. Hail Mithra.
...

So the million dollar question.

What are you looking for as yer destroying your hearing?

Forget about the 'cabthrum' stuff for a minute and just concentrate on the following. Which of the 4 speakers(yes, I'm ASSUMING 4x12) has the clearest and most powerful impact at the 'excursion point'. Hurry! Your ears will NOT last for more than about 3 minutes of this abuse, and once you kill them you're outta the loop for 24hrs. I try to spend about 1 minute MAX on this little fiasco.
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That comes from a post on Pro Sound Web, by an engineer who uses the handle "slipperman." Here's what Fletcher (from Mercenary Audio) says about his work, in the same thread:
I've been listening to a record 'Slipperman' did for the last several days... and kind of studying his work... the guitar sounds fit into the music with a pretty damn perfect blend of size and space... but allow the drums and vocals their own real estate (in a very well articulated manner).

Really fucking nice work!! I would heed the previous advice, and I'm looking forward to the next installment.
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For those who are interested, in the same thread, if you can follow it through, slipperman lays out how to record a great guitar sound. The thread is at http://recpit.prosoundweb.com/viewtopic.php?t=4095&postdays=0&postorder=&start=0 . Read slipperman's bunch of posts, there's a lot of excellent information in there.

If you already think you know everything about recording guitar, then ignore it and continue on your merry way.
 
I am not attacking you. Clam down and don't take things so personally. I just think that putting you ear next to a 110dBs of sound is stupid as fuck. I don't care what a "professional" does. Just because they are "professionals" doesn't mean they are any smarter than you or I. And what we hear is not the same as a mic. So just move the mic until it sounds good.
 
locusLarson...

You dude. Dat ain't no way to be talking to a fellow HR dot Com'er. Charger is just trying to fumagate his wisdom on me. I think that he OBVIOUSLY know a twing or twoo about what an amp is, does, and how it works.

I am still pretty convinced that I will get the TSL122 just becasue I have already played it and it sounds like sweet creemy butter to me. The clean is sweet and full and the distortion grabbs you by the balls and squeezes.

I am not so concerned about the 25 watt switch. I will record full on, with the 100 watt driving the amp. If the sound man at the club want me to turn it down, then I will flip the 25 watt switch and live with the slight degredation in sound quality. (As if anyone will notice in a 250 person sweaty dive).

i sure as shit never planned to get my ear close to a fully cranked 100 wat amp speaker. And I do not think that Charger meant for me to crank the amp, then put my ear 2 cm away. I am sure that he meant that I should walk from one side of the room to the other to see which speaker gives me the buiggest thrill and if it absoluteley needs be to bend down and take a closser listen. But I, and I am sure he Charger did not either, never intend to prop up next to a thundering amp and just have a listen 2 cm away.

No matter what, he is a cool dude, and you are too. So leave the digs for some other guys forums. Now, kiss and make up.
 
I have a feeling he meant putting your ear next to a CRANKED amp. So you can tell what is the best tone. If the amp is not cranked, then you are not going to hear what will be recorded when you crank it.

And hey pisces,
Did you not read my last post??????? I wasn't ripping on him, so don't tell me how to talk to people. This is the internet. And don't forget it:p
 
LocusLarsen...

Did you not read my last post??????? I wasn't ripping on him, so don't tell me how to talk to people.
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Jeez dude... did someone wind up the ol' hinney hairs too tight?
Relax before you bust a blood vessel.

Whoops, sorry, I don't want to tell you how to relax. I mean after all... "this is the internet."
 
I just think that putting you ear next to a 110dBs of sound is stupid as fuck. I don't care what a "professional" does. Just because they are "professionals" doesn't mean they are any smarter than you or I.
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I'm not going to argue with you about it. Being a professional doesn't make people smarter than you or I, but it does mean they get better sounds, and I am always willing to learn, especially from people who are making a living from this. If you read through that thread, you can get a very good base of knoweldge from which to work. Or you can ignore it... it doesn't really affect me either way.

Would I stick my head right in front of a blasting guitar speaker? No. Would I stick it pretty close, to determine which speaker sounds best? Hell yes!

Of course, I also don't think I would turn an amp up to ten by default to get great sounds. One of my favorite guitar sounds is on Weezer's first (blue) album. They actually got that sound by running the amp pretty quiet, they had a particular early Boogie amp that sounded its best at low volumes. Sometimes that's just the way it is.

I would never go into a recording situation with any amp with a preconceived notion of where the amp volume needs to be set.
 
Here's my experience of recording really loud guitar:

Put the amp in a good room with 2 mics - one on the speaker (like 3 inches way pointing at the paper, not the cone) and one about 6 - 8 feet away.

Put the amp volume on 10 (or if you're in Spinal Tap, 11!)

Make sure you have the guitar volume control at zero before you turn the amp up!!!

Go into the control room and close the door.
Turn up the volume on the guitar.

Play your parts using the control room monitors.

Check the quality of the sounds - alter mic placement, amp controls to taste.

A great tube amp wide open just sounds better - it just does!

Enjoy!
 
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