truss rod issue

[Light]

Light,

People often ask me for wall hangers to keep their guitars on in the fairly long-term. Ignoring the fact that just about all guitar shops do this as a matter of course, do you have any advice concerning this?

Nik

My advise is simple. The guitar is never going to be as safe as it is in the case. Period. Now, I have most of my guitars on hangars, but that is simply because I don't have enough cases for them all (a cobblers children and all). But hangars are just a dangerous situation. They put the guitar at risk for bumps and knocks, and it is much harder to control thier climate. I put about 10 gallons of water into the air in my room during the winter, because that is the only way to keep the humidity high enough.

Guitars are always safest in the case.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[noisedude]

My advise is simple. The guitar is never going to be as safe as it is in the case. Period. Now, I have most of my guitars on hangars, but that is simply because I don't have enough cases for them all (a cobblers children and all). But hangars are just a dangerous situation. They put the guitar at risk for bumps and knocks, and it is much harder to control thier climate. I put about 10 gallons of water into the air in my room during the winter, because that is the only way to keep the humidity high enough.

Guitars are always safest in the case.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Cool ... that's what I wanted to hear!!!

 

[Dani Pace]

I put hangers on the wall in my studio/practice room because they are safer than floor stands. Floor stands tip over easily and get in the way, I've got enough cables and other stands in the way, I don't see the need for more clutter. When I finish for the day/night I always wipe my guitars and put them back in their cases. I also use a rack to store my guitars (in cases) I never stack them on top of one another.

 

[gbdweller]

It doesn't work.

Sure, it will usually get the neck back into shape, but in a few months it will be right back where you started. We used to do it a fair bit, but the number of guitars that came back was just unacceptable. Not all of them, but too many. We will still try it on cheap guitars, where the cost of the refret is unreasonable, but it can't be warrantied. We probably haven't done heat pressing with any regularity for at least 15 years.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Gotta disagree. Might not work for you but I haven't had a single one returned yet and I have some out there for over ten years. If the necks you are talking about are that unstable, then they are going to move no matter what you do to them in which case it would be better to have them come back with their fingerboards intact rather than planed down. Eventually you will run out of wood and then be looking at a very costly fingerboard replacement. There are definitely times when neck heating won't work, and I don't use the method on those guitars, but when I can use it, I do. Again, the customers that I've done it for saved alot of money and were quite happy with the end result.

 

[Light]

Gotta disagree. Might not work for you but I haven't had a single one returned yet and I have some out there for over ten years. If the necks you are talking about are that unstable, then they are going to move no matter what you do to them in which case it would be better to have them come back with their fingerboards intact rather than planed down. Eventually you will run out of wood and then be looking at a very costly fingerboard replacement. There are definitely times when neck heating won't work, and I don't use the method on those guitars, but when I can use it, I do. Again, the customers that I've done it for saved alot of money and were quite happy with the end result.

Fixing it with the fingerboard always works for us. They never come back. Heat pressing comes back far too often. Probably something like 35-40%. That is unacceptable. Martin guitars has also found this to be true, which is why they pay for us to straighten the fingerboards when it is an issue (they make the customer pay for the refret part. Not their finest hour, but they are so good about everything else). Fender also recommends against heat pressing, because it just is not consistently successful.

The thing is, when you heat the neck like that, you are taking it right back to being an almost new neck, so it moves a LOT more than on an older guitar (all the internal tensions which have settled out over the years are reintroduced between the fingerboard and the neck, and within the neck itself). Plus, the wood has a memory, and wants to go back to where it was (which was, most of the time, an equilibrium reached after years of settling). When you straighten the fingerboard, you are not messing with all those internal tensions, so the neck remains in its equilibrium state. I've spoken to my friend Frank Ford about this, and he feels the same way. It is an interesting idea, and works great for cheap instruments which are not worth the expense of doing right, but it is not something which can be warranted. If you've had good luck with it, great, but then, maybe instead of bringing it back to you when it goes bad, they are bringing it to me to fix it right. I see a lot of those too.

And then there are the cosmetic problems with a heat press. Yeah, it loosens the neck and fingerboard joint. But it also breaks the lacquer along that joint, so you frequently (not always, but frequently) so that you have a very visible joint and some damaged lacquer. It is even worse with laminated necks, where the glue joint between the laminates will frequently slide as well, making for even more problematic joints.

It just isn't reliable.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[gbdweller]

Fixing it with the fingerboard always works for us. They never come back. Heat pressing comes back far too often. Probably something like 35-40%. That is unacceptable. Martin guitars has also found this to be true, which is why they pay for us to straighten the fingerboards when it is an issue (they make the customer pay for the refret part. Not their finest hour, but they are so good about everything else). Fender also recommends against heat pressing, because it just is not consistently successful.

The thing is, when you heat the neck like that, you are taking it right back to being an almost new neck, so it moves a LOT more than on an older guitar (all the internal tensions which have settled out over the years are reintroduced between the fingerboard and the neck, and within the neck itself). Plus, the wood has a memory, and wants to go back to where it was (which was, most of the time, an equilibrium reached after years of settling). When you straighten the fingerboard, you are not messing with all those internal tensions, so the neck remains in its equilibrium state. I've spoken to my friend Frank Ford about this, and he feels the same way. It is an interesting idea, and works great for cheap instruments which are not worth the expense of doing right, but it is not something which can be warranted. If you've had good luck with it, great, but then, maybe instead of bringing it back to you when it goes bad, they are bringing it to me to fix it right. I see a lot of those too.

And then there are the cosmetic problems with a heat press. Yeah, it loosens the neck and fingerboard joint. But it also breaks the lacquer along that joint, so you frequently (not always, but frequently) so that you have a very visible joint and some damaged lacquer. It is even worse with laminated necks, where the glue joint between the laminates will frequently slide as well, making for even more problematic joints.

It just isn't reliable.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Light, I have read quite a few of your posts and respect the fact that you know what you are doing. But I think you need to realize that you're not the only one in the business that knows what you are doing and that your methods are not the only methods. While there are hacks out there, I happen to have an extensive and very loyal customer base and to imply that my customers are bringing my work to you for re-repair is un-called for. The tip I offered was intended as an alternative for those willing to try it. If it works, great. If it doesn't, use something else.

I use the fingerboard planing technique far more than heating fingerboards, and sometimes can even get away with fixing a slight twist simply in the way I level the frets, but find the heat method a viable option on certain guitars. Sometimes I use a combination of both. A neck that has to move far enough to damage the finish is a perfect example of a guitar that I wouldn't use it on. Old, stable guitars that have settled into the twisted state would be another unlikely candidate for heat. Heat works best on necks that have twisted from heat i.e. left in the car on a hot summer day. I've also found that it doesn't work on quite a few cheaper guitars due to the glues used in their construction. I'm sure you know that the method is useless on epoxies, superglues and titebond(Titebond works sometimes if you can introduce moisture with the heat). Also, if you are having a problem with necks delaminating, then you are using entirely too much heat. As a matter of fact if you've heated the neck that far, you've probably scorched the finish. The idea is to heat the fingerboard, not the neck, and soften the fingerboard joint glue just enough to move, not melt it into a liquid.

The bottom line?...Add your opinions without trashing my work. I don't appreciate it.

 

[Light]

... to imply that my customers are bringing my work to you for re-repair is un-called for. The tip I offered was intended as an alternative for those willing to try it....

Woops. I thought I had edited that out. What can I say, but that I've been sick, and it was late. Sorry about that.


One question for you, however: If you don't want to use it for Tightbond and similar types of glue, nor for epoxies, then what DO you want to use it for? Tightbond loosens with heat better than just about any other glue out there (a little experiment of Frank Ford's on the subject), except for maybe hot melt glue, but I only know of one guy who uses that on guitars (somewhat bizarrely, that would be Kevin Ryan, who uses a very high grade hot melt glue for the wings on his pegheads). By saying you shouldn't use heat pressing when the fingerboard is epoxied, CA'd, or Tightbond, you are excluding ever guitar made by any of the major manufacturers. Remember, the only difference between Tightbond and something like LMI's luthiers glue, or in fact most of the glues used by industrial manufacturers of wood products (barring hot melts and epoxies, which are not common on guitars) is that Tightbond has a bit of a coloring agent. So, again, which guitars are you thinking of that heat pressing will work on? Obviously, you are right that it will not loosen epoxy or CA, but Tightbond and other aliphatic resin glues are the ones which will respond BEST to heat treatments. I know others have used heat pressing and liked it, but our long experience with it says that it is a second rate repair, which is something we will not do.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[gbdweller]

Hide glue and some of the spray on contact adhesives used sporadically over the years. To say that it doesn't work with Titebond was too broad of a statement. I've found that older Titebond or A.R. 's that have become brittle with age (10 or more years?) will soften and release fine with heat but generally won't set as well when they cool especially on a joint that requires a fair amount of movement, yet another example of a neck that I would probably not elect to use heat on. More recently applied A.R.'s do respond great to heat and will reset almost as good as the original bond. Moisture helps break the bond even better as in steaming the joint during a neck removal. Most of the guitars that I have used heat with are almost always relatively new and had been turned into pretzels by being left in the car in the summer. Again, this is all stuff to be considered and discussed with the customer before I ever begin a repair. Warranty repair is a whole other subject that I won't even get into in this thread. Needless to say, I won't void a warranty by using an un-authorized repair technique.

You know as well as I do that we all have little tricks and techniques that work great for some, and not so great for others. We could both probably write chapters listing them all. Some might say that building up a low slot in a nut with bone dust and CA and re-cutting the slot is a substandard repair, but it sure is a quick, handy little repair for a customer who needs that axe tonight and is up against it financially as most musicians are. If I can save the starving artist a few beans to get his axe back to him for tonight's gig, I'll do it, as long as I don't void a warranty or ruin an instrument. One thing I won't do is let a guitar out the door that is in anything but perfect playing condition. I stand by my work as any of my customers will tell you.

BTW, thanks for the apology. I've been quite sick myself and know where you're coming from. Now I'm off to the shop to get caught up on some spraying that got neglected during my illness. If you have a tip on wearing a respirator with extreme congestion other than stuffing my nose with tissues, let me know. That would be a tip that I couldn't help but try.

 

[noisedude]

If you have a tip on wearing a respirator with extreme congestion other than stuffing my nose with tissues, let me know. That would be a tip that I couldn't help but try.

Last month a guy wrote into Sound on Sound magazine asking for advice on how to record his singing when he had a cold ... erm ... yeah ... the reply was along the lines of, "colds are one of life's little bastards".

Have fun and don't suffocate!

 

[Light]

I've found that older Titebond or A.R. 's that have become brittle with age (10 or more years?) will soften and release fine with heat but generally won't set as well when they cool

This is perhaps the biggest problem with heat pressing. No matter how old it is, the only glue that will come back to a full strength bond is hide glue, and I think we can both agree that we would never heat press any guitar which was using hide glue. The fingerboard joint is not under much tension in most necks, but the necks you would even consider heat pressing are, by definition, the necks where that joint will be most critical. A.R will retain a good percentage of its strength, but not enough, at least not for us.

You know as well as I do that we all have little tricks and techniques that work great for some, and not so great for others. We could both probably write chapters listing them all. Some might say that building up a low slot in a nut with bone dust and CA and re-cutting the slot is a substandard repair...

well, now that you mention it.... but for a temporary fix (with a stress on the temporary) fix it can get you by. The only thing is, it is at least as fast (for us) to shim the nut which is a good repair which can last as long as the guitar (or at least, as long as a new nut). It takes so dang long to cleanly fill the slot, and in the time it takes to do that, I can pop the nut out and have a piece of maple venieer under it, and be half way through readjusting the slots. But filling the slot can sure be handy on all those Gibsons with the finished in nuts and 20 mil finishes (I measured a bit of finish from under a 1970's Dove bridge at about 28 mils the other day - what the hell were they thinking - and that thing had been under enough pressure from clamping the bridge that it was noticably thinner than the rest of the top's finish, by a few thousanths at least), even if it is only a temporary repair.

...One thing I won't do is let a guitar out the door that is in anything but perfect playing condition. I stand by my work as any of my customers will tell you.

Good to hear. There are far too many in this business who don't. We make a lot of money fixing their work, but I'd rather it they be done right in the first place.

BTW, thanks for the apology. I've been quite sick myself and know where you're coming from.

Yeah, people always give me a hard time for my attitude, but you should see most of my posts before I edit out the really sarcastic stuff that nobody around here seems to get.

Now I'm off to the shop to get caught up on some spraying that got neglected during my illness. If you have a tip on wearing a respirator with extreme congestion other than stuffing my nose with tissues, let me know. That would be a tip that I couldn't help but try.

Maybe you could try some of those ultra thin tampax?

Actually, I wear a spray sock when I'm in the spray booth, which is kind of like a cotton balaclava that covers everthing but my eyes, and then the respirator goes over that. It makes a respirator more comfortable under any circumstances, and with my beard it helps to make a better seal around the edges. Best of all keeps my beard from smelling like lacquer thiner (or worse, butyl cellosolve) for the next week. Highly recommended, and it might even help.



Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[gbdweller]

well, now that you mention it.... but for a temporary fix (with a stress on the temporary) fix it can get you by. The only thing is, it is at least as fast (for us) to shim the nut which is a good repair which can last as long as the guitar (or at least, as long as a new nut). It takes so dang long to cleanly fill the slot, and in the time it takes to do that, I can pop the nut out and have a piece of maple venieer under it, and be half way through readjusting the slots. But filling the slot can sure be handy on all those Gibsons with the finished in nuts and 20 mil finishes (I measured a bit of finish from under a 1970's Dove bridge at about 28 mils the other day - what the hell were they thinking - and that thing had been under enough pressure from clamping the bridge that it was noticably thinner than the rest of the top's finish, by a few thousanths at least), even if it is only a temporary repair.

You just read my mind. Or how about the occasional stubborn Fender nut that won't come out clean now matter how hard you beg?

Back when I had 'rocker hair' I wore the spray sock. Now I find that a slight build of lacquer helps keep a healthy shine on my head Maybe I'll stuff one of those up my nose. Or maybe I'll just go back to bed until I'm better...

 

[gbdweller]

Last month a guy wrote into Sound on Sound magazine asking for advice on how to record his singing when he had a cold ... erm ... yeah ... the reply was along the lines of, "colds are one of life's little bastards".

Have fun and don't suffocate!

If colds are one of life's little bastards, I wonder what this flu is?...Demon spawn?

 

[noisedude]

If colds are one of life's little bastards, I wonder what this flu is?...Demon spawn?

We have to leave some room in this scale for, like, cancer and stuff ...

 

[little guy]

i just got the bass back. everything has been corrected. sounds freakin sweet now!

 

[gbdweller]

i just got the bass back. everything has been corrected. sounds freakin sweet now!

Glad to hear it. Thanks for the update.

 

[Light]

i just got the bass back. everything has been corrected. sounds freakin sweet now!

Which is, of course, the whole reason I'm always telling people to take their guitars to a pro.

Glad to hear it.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[noisedude]

Which is, of course, the whole reason I'm always telling people to take their guitars to a pro.

Glad to hear it.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

And all the techies in the thread said, "amen".