Triple Micing

[drbluezz]

Anyone triple miced a guitar amp? Are there any problems such as phase issues doing it? I'd like to place a mic (Sennheiser e906) an inch or two off the grill, another (Royer R-122 active ribbon) about a foot behind, and another (Shure KSM-44) as a room mic...all on separate tracks. Then mix and match to taste. Maybe it's totally unnecessary and I'll gain nothing? Any comments or suggestions? Thanks.


Tom

 

[soundchaser59]

I've done it with two close mics in front (RE20 + a ribbon) and one close mic in the back (D5 or SM57, etc), reverse phase the rear mic. When I go back and listen to old tunes I made, the best sounding guitar tracks are the ones with front and rear mic. The third mic always adds something nice, it's always better than just the sum of the parts.

Also got very interesting results using a sideways figure 8 for one of the front mics, dup it and reverse phase it (4 tracks total). Gives a huge spacious sound.

 

[thebigredhotdog]

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The Big Red Hot Dog

 

[mixsit]

... I'd like to place a mic (Sennheiser e906) an inch or two off the grill, another (Royer R-122 active ribbon) about a foot behind..

All time differences make phase effects.

The depth of the effect depends on the relative volume.

An exception is 'room or distant mics that pick up enough random reflections to overcome the direct line phase effects.

Check out 'coherent mic technique'.

Better yet, do it. Mix the two at equal volume in mono and compare either to both.
Try the phase-tone difference at 2+6" vs 2+18". It will take 10 minutes.

Once you hear it you will understand and remember for ever.

 

[Ironklad Audio]

personally i would stick the 906 and royer the same distance from the cab to keep them in phase with each other, then have a room mic a few feet back from there

not to say it can't be done the way you proposed, but 3 mics on 1 source, all at different distances, sounds like it'll be phase hell

 

[fivesixonesk8er]

I actually just recorded a guitar amp with 4 microphones and got an awesome guitar tone. The head was a EVH 5150III, and I used a Orange 2x12, and a Mesa 4x12 cabs.

I placed two SM57's on the two Orange speakers. On the Mesa cab, I placed an SM57 on one speaker, and a Sennheiser MD421 on another speaker. All the mics were placed Almost touching the gill, facing the cone.

 

[mixsit]

.. two SM57's on the two Orange speakers. On the Mesa cab, I placed an SM57 on one speaker, and a Sennheiser MD421 on another speaker. All the mics were placed Almost touching the gill, facing the cone.

...all more or less equal distance.

 

[soundchaser59]

not to say it can't be done the way you proposed, but 3 mics on 1 source, all at different distances, sounds like it'll be phase hell

Agreed. I spent the time to get all 3 of mine the same distance from the speaker, front and rear. A lot less time than I would have spent trying to compensate for the phase and delay issues if I had used different distances.

You can compensate for varying distances by using delay some what. Figure roughly 1ms per foot. Dont forget the 3-to-1 triangle rule......mics 2 inches from the grill should be 6 inches from each other, etc.... something like that....

Good sound IS complicated. Now that I've done it, I'll NEVER go back to using just one mic on a guitar cab. Same reason I'll never go back to using just one mic on an acoustic guitar.

 

[Farview]

Dont forget the 3-to-1 triangle rule......mics 2 inches from the grill should be 6 inches from each other, etc.... something like that....

The 3-to-1 rule is not for using multiple mics on the same source. It's for getting isolation between mics (which gets rid of the phase problems)

 

[drbluezz]

OK, since I originally posted this thread I've picked up a Universal Audio 610 Solo to go with my LA 610. I also picked up a Shure KSM-44 for vocals and a room mic. So, I can run two mics through tube preamps and into the 002R (running Protools 7.4) and one mic directly to the 002R (if I use 3 mics simultaneously). Keeping in mind the mics I have (Royer R-122 active ribbon, Shure KSM-44 transformerless large diaphragm condenser, Sennheiser e906 dynamic, and two Shure SM-57s) how would you initially mic a 1x12" combo guitar amp? If you wouldn't run three mics simultaneously, how would you do it? Thanks again.


Tom

 

[mixsit]

The 122 for sure -sweet ) 4-6" out, moved around to find it's most appropriate tone. Then the same with the dynamics if you need see if they fit the bill better -but each on it's own and each placed for it's best position. If you have to use or decide to use two close mics you have the new choice of going with each one's best position and like the combined phase' tone- or place one placed to match the other's distance.

Enough options there for ya?
(I'm presuming the room mic isn't going to be much of a phase bugger.

 

[drbluezz]

OK, I did it and it worked fabulously!! The e906 was placed about 1" from the grill cloth, dead center with the dome, the R-122 about 14"-15" almost directly behind, maybe 1" to the left and aimed directly toward the dome, and the KSM-44 about 3 1/2'-4' behind the R-122 and about 1' to the right and about 4' high, pointed down directly at the dome. The R-122 went into the LA-610, the KSM-44 went into the Solo 610, and the e906 went into mic/line input 1 of the 002R. VERY full sound with no phase issues that I could detect. I listened back several times with each mic separately, each pair of mics, and finally all three. I thought it sounded slightly more full and covered a wider frequency range with all three mics. I did take time to get down in front of the amp while I played my guitar to find "sweet spots" (not easy to do while wearing and playing a guitar) and I placed the mics accordingly. It worked! Stupidpendously!! Really. Uhh, excuse my enthusiasm. I'm still in that "discovery" stage.


Tom

 

[pylet2000]

I use 3 mics on guitar amps every time. I set up a M/S pair with a ribbon and some kind of dynamic (they all work fairly well) about 4' away, and another ribbon about 4-6" from the grill cloth. This is out of phase, so in ProTools I match the phase of the close ribbon mic to the M/S dynamic as best I can. Copy and invert the phase of the side ribbon mic, stereo pan, and viola! Huge guitar tones, supple mids, wide stereo image, and tons of low end punch.

I use the close ribbon just as a supplement to the M/S pair, the close ribbon has a lot of bass and punch. The M/S pair has all the air and feel, but by itself has a distant sound.

The amp and speaker are probably more important that micing though. I'd rather have one mic on a good sounding amp than three mics on a mediocre amp... My definition of 'good' and 'mediocre' amps has changed drastically as I've spent time chasing guitar tones, with my (expensive and well-respected) "favorites" finding their way to Ebay as I started to hear what was happening in a studio. Truly usable electric guitar tones are really elusive, the best thing I've found is trying to start with what worked for the guys in the 60's (arguably best guitar tones ever, depending on what you're going for), then tweak to personal taste from there.

Just my opinion on the matter, of course...

 

[drbluezz]

I use 3 mics on guitar amps every time. I set up a M/S pair with a ribbon and some kind of dynamic (they all work fairly well) about 4' away, and another ribbon about 4-6" from the grill cloth. This is out of phase, so in ProTools I match the phase of the close ribbon mic to the M/S dynamic as best I can. Copy and invert the phase of the side ribbon mic, stereo pan, and viola! Huge guitar tones, supple mids, wide stereo image, and tons of low end punch.

I use the close ribbon just as a supplement to the M/S pair, the close ribbon has a lot of bass and punch. The M/S pair has all the air and feel, but by itself has a distant sound.

The amp and speaker are probably more important that micing though. I'd rather have one mic on a good sounding amp than three mics on a mediocre amp... My definition of 'good' and 'mediocre' amps has changed drastically as I've spent time chasing guitar tones, with my (expensive and well-respected) "favorites" finding their way to Ebay as I started to hear what was happening in a studio. Truly usable electric guitar tones are really elusive, the best thing I've found is trying to start with what worked for the guys in the 60's (arguably best guitar tones ever, depending on what you're going for), then tweak to personal taste from there.

Just my opinion on the matter, of course...

That sounds like a great technique. But what do you mean by "copy and invert the phase"? I know what reversing the phase is. Please explain what you mean by "copy and invert the phase"? I'm a relative newbie. Thanks.


Tom