K
Kerose
New member
can someone explain to me what the difference in the two are, in what situations or applications do you use each
Farview
Well-known member
Trim adjusts the signal level going into the channel strip, volume adjusts the signal level coming out of it. (generally, it depends on the piece of equipment you are looking at)
M
mixsit
Well-known member
One app would be to use trim to dial in track or clips levels- say to even out punches or sections of a track prior to their being sent on to the next stage in the channel strip. The level changes here effect what a compressor on the track insert sees for example, where the fader controls the level after the insert.
Assuming 'Cake here, look into 'gain envelopes which are very handy as a first layer of 'rough in automation (or even an option to mute editing.
The fader levels then can be looked at as a final fine tuning.
So many way to go here.
Assuming 'Cake here, look into 'gain envelopes which are very handy as a first layer of 'rough in automation (or even an option to mute editing.
The fader levels then can be looked at as a final fine tuning.
So many way to go here.
K
Kerose
New member
so trim would be my "insert gain" sort of, and volume would be my "output gain", so i would want to set my Trim levels before tracking and before mixing, and then once that level is set i can add any insert effects, and my volume will be the level coming out of the inserts?? this would be only for actual insert effects and not for say busses, if i had no effects on the track and had the track going to a bus, the volume and trim would essentially act the same in that case, correct?
M
mixsit
Well-known member
'Input gain to the channel strip- on an analog mixer this adjusts your level in' to the unit's normal operating range, or on a preamp feeding your digital record-in level. But none of these controls in the DAW have any effect on record level. Once it's in that part is set. 'Trim at that point is just for correcting or balancing (for whatever reason) within the program -track' or bus' level it's the same place in the chain -before insert, the fader -and aux sends by the way.
It is there as an option to the fader.
K
Kerose
New member
yeah, i'm only referring to in Sonar, sorry your sentence kind of ran together, i don't follow that last post.
M
mixsit
Well-known member
Best thing is to find the signal flow diagram in the Sonar help file. It really helps to see it laid out.
Fishmed
Well-known member
Using the trim function, you can adjust the volume "pre" eq/comp/etc.; this allows you to adjust the volum of the track before hitting your dynamic effects. You would then use the volume for the track to adjust the whole level of the effected track. Most of the dynamic effects (plug-ins) that I use in Sonar, have an input gain so I never use the trim. I actually never gave it much though until I read your post.
ido1957
9K Gold Member
Let's say you do some automation on the track. Once it's written it controls the volume. The fader is auto-moved throughout the song. If the overall volume is too high, I find that trim can adjust volume ins spite of the automation. So it's like a master volume.....above automation....
Fishmed
Well-known member
That is a great tip. I've never thought of that, and I have found myself in that very situation. Of course if you have a compressor on that track, you might have to adjust for the extra input gain.
Farview
Well-known member
If you have a compressor inserted, you would just use the makeup gain to adjust the volume.
Fishmed
Well-known member
I was about to write something else, but as I got done typing, I realized if you adjusted the threshold, then you could be bringing the track's level back to where it was before the trim adjustment. So if you do have a compressor on the track, it would be best to adjust its output level instead of using the Trim.
Good call Farview!!!
Farview
Well-known member
No, the threshold doesn't adjust the level of the signal, it tells the compressor at what signal level to start compressing. If you turned down the trim 6db, you would need to turn down the threshold 6db to get the same compression. The output of the compressor would be down 6db as well.
Fishmed
Well-known member
My bad, you are right. But you would still need to make adjustments to your Threshold if you adjusted the Trim, that was the main point I was making.
(I am thinking too much tonight.)
V
vask100
New member
trim vs volume
i know i'm jumping in midstream, but this topic has opened up a question for me relative to a problem i have in the audio recording process. as a sonar 4 user, it seems that i'm constantly plagued by low recording levels from my keyboard, a motif 7, but it the same with other rack pieces and an mpc2000. i employ a emu1212m soundcard, which i found out recently provided trim pot inputs for additional gain(duh); these helped in my recordings but i'm still noticing added noise if i get my record levels up to an acceptable input level. i run an adat (as a digital mixer) for A/D conversion of tracks but even with the adat going into my souncard via a optical in, i'm non-plussed as to why the tracks seem to be recording lower than i'd like. getting the tracks to their highest input level usually involves adding a sizeable noise floor to the overall track, even in the digital domain. i can mask this some with a gate, but as the old saying goes, "garbage in, garbage out". this i must change.
which begs my question; how do the "trims" in the sonar's track properties affect recording input, or do they? i've actually never tried them (but then i was the dummy who didn't know to use trims on my SC either!!, lol). should i be employing them as added input (is that what they're for?) and reduce the levels of the line in AND trims in the SC (lowering the noise floor). any advice is welcome.
i know i'm jumping in midstream, but this topic has opened up a question for me relative to a problem i have in the audio recording process. as a sonar 4 user, it seems that i'm constantly plagued by low recording levels from my keyboard, a motif 7, but it the same with other rack pieces and an mpc2000. i employ a emu1212m soundcard, which i found out recently provided trim pot inputs for additional gain(duh); these helped in my recordings but i'm still noticing added noise if i get my record levels up to an acceptable input level. i run an adat (as a digital mixer) for A/D conversion of tracks but even with the adat going into my souncard via a optical in, i'm non-plussed as to why the tracks seem to be recording lower than i'd like. getting the tracks to their highest input level usually involves adding a sizeable noise floor to the overall track, even in the digital domain. i can mask this some with a gate, but as the old saying goes, "garbage in, garbage out". this i must change.
which begs my question; how do the "trims" in the sonar's track properties affect recording input, or do they? i've actually never tried them (but then i was the dummy who didn't know to use trims on my SC either!!, lol). should i be employing them as added input (is that what they're for?) and reduce the levels of the line in AND trims in the SC (lowering the noise floor). any advice is welcome.
Farview
Well-known member
It could be a couple different possibilities
1. Your keyboard isn't turned all the way up. Having a quiet source forces you to turn up the level farther downstream. Which rasies the noise floor. The Motif makes a certain amount of noise regardless of the signal. If you turn down the volume of the signal, the volume difference between the noise and the signal gets smaller. If you turn that signal up farther down the chain, you are turning up that noise as well. It's always best to get a strong signal from the source.
2. You are trying to record too hot. With sounds that don't have a large transient, (sounds like string pads, choir patches, anything that isn't percussive) you want the level to be about half way up the meter in sonar. If you are trying to get close to the top, you are recording at least 15db too hot.
The trim control in Sonar shouldn't effect the recording level. If it does, it won't do you any good. Anything that can be controled through software happens AFTER the signal has gone through the converters and has been digitized. By that time, it is too late to get the gain staging correct on the analog side. (which is where your problem is)
Fishmed
Well-known member
Your issue is more about hardware and "Gain" management. I have a friend who went through this very issue. The noise you hear could be coming from your sound card or your keyboards. If you run either with too highof gain you will get the noise. I suggest you use moderate gain on both units, a comprimise between the two. This will take a little bit of trial and error to find the right balance between the volume of your sound card and your keyboard. I would find the bes level with the least amount of noise, if you have to increase the volume after that, you might need to use your software to get the added gain, but even then, you will be bringing up your noise foor.
Your signal chain is only as strong as its weekest link, so you may have to upgrade your sound card to something better down the road to get better performance out of your system. For now, just try experimenting the ratio of volume used on both devices, you just might find the right combination that will work for you.
V
vask100
New member
"Your issue is more about hardware and "Gain" management. I have a friend who went through this very issue. The noise you hear could be coming from your sound card or your keyboards. If you run either with too highof gain you will get the noise. I suggest you use moderate gain on both units, a comprimise between the two. This will take a little bit of trial and error to find the right balance between the volume of your sound card and your keyboard. I would find the bes level with the least amount of noise, if you have to increase the volume after that, you might need to use your software to get the added gain, but even then, you will be bringing up your noise foor.
Your signal chain is only as strong as its weekest link, so you may have to upgrade your sound card to something better down the road to get better performance out of your system. For now, just try experimenting the ratio of volume used on both devices, you just might find the right combination that will work for you."
oh, i'm certain the noise is generated from the soundcard; and i'm diligently working to find that balance for good "gain management". i was confused about the "trim" pot in the track properties and what it is useful for, in that i'd never found a reason to use it in the record process. i am beginning to come to grips with the soundcard upgrade option, however; i've been getting a significant amount of pops and clicks in my monitors which i'm fearful that my sound card isn't doing something else at the level i need it too.
thanks for the quick responses
Your signal chain is only as strong as its weekest link, so you may have to upgrade your sound card to something better down the road to get better performance out of your system. For now, just try experimenting the ratio of volume used on both devices, you just might find the right combination that will work for you."
oh, i'm certain the noise is generated from the soundcard; and i'm diligently working to find that balance for good "gain management". i was confused about the "trim" pot in the track properties and what it is useful for, in that i'd never found a reason to use it in the record process. i am beginning to come to grips with the soundcard upgrade option, however; i've been getting a significant amount of pops and clicks in my monitors which i'm fearful that my sound card isn't doing something else at the level i need it too.
thanks for the quick responses
Fishmed
Well-known member
If you are using a digital (ADAT) conection from any you device to your sound card, pop and crackles can happen when the two devices are not in sync (wordclock). If it is just occational, you could be running something too hot into your soundcard and would be considered clipping. Short of hearing what you hear, it is tough to debug the issue. You suond like you have a good knowledge of what you are doing, and already may know the difference.
Let us know if we can help you further.
Let us know if we can help you further.
V
vask100
New member
If you are using a digital (ADAT) conection from any you device to your sound card, pop and crackles can happen when the two devices are not in sync (wordclock). If it is just occational, you could be running something too hot into your soundcard and would be considered clipping. Short of hearing what you hear, it is tough to debug the issue. You suond like you have a good knowledge of what you are doing, and already may know the difference.
Let us know if we can help you further.
i can see that; however, i'm only using the ADAT as a digital mixer; it supplies output/input for some unpowered monitors, an mpc 2000 and various racks. why should it need to be "in sync" if i'm not using it as a recording device? am i mistaken? if i am, how can i correct this "wordclock" scenario; i've never heard of it (not that that means anything!!)......lastly, it pops and clicks when there's no sound or input, just when the adat is on (i believe)