Trains, Planes and BUSSES

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dachay2tnr

dachay2tnr

One Hit Wonder
New Sonar 3 user here!! :)

My main reason for going to S3 was the Bus Routing features. Now that I have it, it seems to be exactly what I wanted. However, I have two issues with it.

1. Why don't the Hardware Mains show up in Track View?

and

2. Howcum when I start a new project, the Main Buses are labeled A, B, C, etc. But when I insert an additional Main Bus, it is labeled Bus 1? Doesn't that seem stupid. It seems to me it should either continue the A, B, C, notation, or it should be 1, 2, 3, ... What's up with that?

To further elaborate on my first point. Let's say I have a project with a lead vocal, three background vocals, 4 drum tracks, and a guitar and bass. I am likely to assign the 3 background vocals to their own Bus, let's say Bus 1. Then I'm going to assign the 4 drums tracks to their own Bus, Bus 2. Both Bus 1 and 2 will be assigned to Hardware Main 1/2. I will probably send all the other tracks directly to the Hardware Main (1/2) as well. Cool, so far. However, everything is being summed at the Hardware Main, and I have no meters in Track View to see what's going on.

They are there in Console View. BUT I DON'T WANT TO USE CONSOLE VIEW. IT IS EVIL AND CAUSES BLINDNESS.

I realize that I could assign everything to another Main Bus (Bus 3) and meter it there - sending only Bus 3 out to the Hardware Mains. But that seems like an unnecessary step to me.

Does anyone understand what I'm saying, and did I miss something??
 
dachay2tnr said:
I DON'T WANT TO USE CONSOLE VIEW. IT IS EVIL AND CAUSES BLINDNESS.
Click to expand...

LOL!!! :D

I haven't upgraded to Sonar 3 myself..
 
I think the labelling issue is resulting from keeping an upgraded version of your NORMAL.CWT file.

If you do a blank install of Sonar 3, update it to 3.1.1, you end up with a MASTER bus an EFFECT BUS and something else created

Save a template and go from there, I would suggest.

:) Q.
 
Yeah, you can just build your own custom template and have that come up each time with all of your busses and names the way you like.
 
Thanks for the replies, guys.

Having tweaked my curiousity, I opened the file Normal.tpl and the Buses are named quite differently there. One Main Bus is named "Master," while the second is named "Subgroup 1." The Aux Bus is named "Effect Send 1."

Still, if you insert a new Bus, rather than getting Subgroup 2, or something that might seem logical, the new Bus is named Bus 1 or Bus 2 or Bus 3 (depending on where you right click the insert point).

It apparently is treating the busses named "Master" and "Subgroup 1" as Bus 1 and 2.

I realize I can set up templates and/or rename these anything I want. I just find their starting point to be rather dumb.

--------------------

No one seems to have chimed in on the lack of a channel strip(s) for the Hardware Mains in Track View. Based on the naming convention I found above in Normal.tpl, it would appear Cakewalk assumes you will set up a Virtual Bus where everything is summed (i.e., Master), and then route that to the Hardware Mains. Not sure I understand why, as it seems like an extra step. This also doesn't explaing why there is a channel strip for the Hardware Mains in Console View. Seems to me it should either appear in both or neither.

Am I overanalyzing this thing? Neither of the above are show stoppers. Just a bit puzzling to me. :confused:
 
still waitng for the dust to settle...

I don't understand how to insert an effects send.
I have'nt used this advanced routing at all.I wish it could be laid out in a graphic block form with icons so you could visualise the actual routing.
 
Re: still waitng for the dust to settle...

acidrock said:
I don't understand how to insert an effects send.
I have'nt used this advanced routing at all.I wish it could be laid out in a graphic block form with icons so you could visualise the actual routing.
Click to expand...
Not sure I understand what you are asking. To you mean how to insert a "new" effects send? Or do you mean how to use one?

Let me try a little tutorial. The difference between a Main Bus and an Effects Send (or Aux Bus) is that you use a Main Bus to send the ENTIRE track output to. Therefore, if a track is set up to send its output to Main Bus 1 and you turned down the fader on Main Bus 1, you would hear nothing.

An Effects Send, OTOH, is more like a tap off the track. The track still sends its output to whatever has been set up (Main Bus 1, for ex.) however, a portion of the signal is also sent to the Effects Send/Aux Bus. Therefore, it you turned down the fader on an Effects Send, you will still hear the track.

So when do you use one versus the other?

Main Buses would be used to create "groupings" of tracks, or to use an effect that you want applied to the entire signal (e.g., EQ, compression). As an example, let's say you have three background harmony tracks. You might want to send these three to their own Main Bus. This then would give a single control point (fader) for all three tracks. You use the track faders to set the balance among the 3 voices, and then the Bus fader to control all of the background vocals in relation to the rest of the mix. Background harmony too loud? Just lower the fader on the Background Harmony Bus - rather than having to lower the 3 track faders, and possibly screwing up the balance between the voices in the process.

Similarly, if you want to apply the same EQ to all 3 voices, you just need to patch an EQ onto the Bus, rather than 3 separate EQ's on each individual track.

An Effects Send is similar but it used primarily for effects such a reverb or delay where you want to create a blend of the dry signal and the effected (wet) signal. In this case, only a portion of the track signal is sent to the Aux Bus.

To enable it, you go to the FX tab in Track View. Click on the square box and it will light up. The Aux Bux is now enabled. Next determine whether you want the send controlled by the track fader or not by setting the Pre/Post setting. Pre(fader) means the amount of signal sent to the Bus will not be affected by the Track fader. Post(fader) means it will. In the majority of cases you will probably want this set to "post." The final two settings are the Send Level (volume) and Send pan settings. The determine how much signal is sent to the Bus and how it should be panned.

Now go to the Effects Send Bus and patch in your effect. There are some additional controls on that Bus as well. Where the Bus output will be assigned to, as well as more volume and pan settings. The main difference is these controls will affect ALL the signals being sent to the Bus. So for example, if you are sending three harmony voices to the Bus, and you want one panned left, one panned right and one panned center, you would use the pan settings on the tracks' Effect Send controls. On the other hand, if you wanted all three voices panned left, you could use the Effect Send pan controls.

Whew! This was more difficult to explain than I thought. I don't know if it helped or not, but keep asking questions if it's still not clear.
 
sorry to say...

but that was'nt what I was really asking.:rolleyes:

I just figured it out.
I had been opening old projects and I had no need to insert sends.You used to just click to an add aux and you had another send.Now if I'm doing this right,you must add a bus to the out/bus(?) view,then add a send to the track and route this send to the bus.
The teminology has changed to reflect the open endedness of the new routing.
I was thrown off by not clicking and seeing "effect send",it's just a matter of renaming it to suit my tastes.

I think a template is in order though.
 
Re: sorry to say...

acidrock said:
but that was'nt what I was really asking.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Oh. :o :(

Well, that was my first question. Of course, I then proceeded to pick the wrong one to answer. :D :D

Yeah, it seems you've got it. That threw me off a little as well. What seems to make an Effect Send different than a Bus is simply how you handle it at the Track level. Routing the track output to the Bus, makes/keeps it a Bus. Inserting a send on the Track and routing it to this Bus makes it an Effect Send (Aux Bus).

At least, I think that's the deal. :confused:
 
Yeah, it seems you've got it. That threw me off a little as well. What seems to make an Effect Send different than a Bus is simply how you handle it at the Track level. Routing the track output to the Bus, makes/keeps it a Bus. Inserting a send on the Track and routing it to this Bus makes it an Effect Send (Aux Bus).
Click to expand...
YESSSSS!!!!
That's the thing that threw me off too.Now that I understand this it all makes more sense.
It's more flexible,but an extra layer has been added to the fold.

Okay,now that I understand it,I like it.:o :rolleyes:
 
dachay2tnr

I have run across two options which help me get a better sound. First I have a tracking template which keeps to simple busses, similar to the old aux busses in prior versions. I use the following:

One main vocal buss all vocals go here
One main music buss all instruments go here. EQ across this buss to midrange down the music so the vocal pops through.

These two busses point to a Master Buss which I may or may not EQ. The Master buss in turn is routed to the Soundcard. The idea here is to just have a quick and dirty sound for tracking. Minimal effects so that I can focus on tracking correctly.

After tracking is done I copy it all over to a mixing template. The 2nd template is set up for all the delays, reverbs and compression effects. These can be up to 20 busses
All of these point to one or more of the following additional busses.

Drum master
Guitar master
Keyboard master
BKgrd Vocals
Main Vocals
Solos

Now I am down to 6 busses for mixing. I can either compress individually these busses and send them to the master which then points to the soundcard or, optionally, I will set up 4 additional busses to do a SSL board approach as follows:

Compression below 125Hz - 1176
Compression from 125 to 800 - Fairchild
Compression from 800 to 2000 - 1176 or LA2A
Compression above 2000 + LA2A or Fairchild sometimes Sonitus.

These 4 point to the master buss which points to the soundcard. This last comes from the TapeOp article on buss compression I read a couple of months ago.

Buss mania huh?
 
Middleman said:
After tracking is done I copy it all over to a mixing template.
Click to expand...

For some reason I'm not getting this part. How are you doing the copy?
Thanks
Wayne
 
Interesting, middleman. You're sure getting your money's worth out of the new routing features. :D :D

I am imagining that my approach will be similar to your Mixing Template. However, on some stuff, I will skip the Bus and work directly on the Track. Main Vocal is an example. Since this would normally be just a single track in my case, I doubt I would use a Bus for it. Just slap everything on the Track, and route it to the Master Bus - although I would use an Effects Send for reverb on that track.
 
mixsit said:
For some reason I'm not getting this part. How are you doing the copy?
Thanks
Wayne
Click to expand...


This is where I consolidate all the midi tracks to audio put everything into a single folder then import it back into the mixing template. Takes about 30 minutes.

I failed to mention the track set up in the mixing template. It comes in as follows:

5 main vocal tracks (may or may not be needed
3-4 bkgrnd tracks
Bass,
kick
snare
other drums
Cymbals
5 guitar tracks
4 keyboard/pad tracks.
Strings 2 tracks
Percussion
4 misc tracks

All of these are imported from the tracking folder currently but I am working on a standard copy/paste scenario from tracking to mixing so that after the paste I just have to do the tracks assignments to effects and compression.

I have no life..

Actually having this all worked out before hand lets me focus on the music and not building from scratch each time I record. It's like having an assistant set up the board prior to my arrival.
 
Anyone ever do a 'post your favorite template thread around here? :cool:
 
Good idea, but how transferrable are they going to be given that everyone's I/O path is different?

Q.
 
As long as you like the Console View and have two monitors, you can have mine.. ;)
 
dachay2tnr said:


1. Why don't the Hardware Mains show up in Track View?
Click to expand...
Well, I just noticed something else. There is no way to patch an effect onto a Hardware (physical) Main Out. Therefore it does not appear that Cakewalk intended them to be used as a Master Out.

Also, in the normal templates, there is a Virtual Bus set up and labeled as Master.

It's still not clear to me why Cakewalk has a channel strip in Console View for the H/W outs. It doesn't seem to serve any purpose that the Virtual Master wouldn't also serve. All they do is provide a meter for the hardware, which should read exactly the same as your Virtual Master.

Am I still missing something here?

Anyway, it appears I can still work completely in Track View and still don't need Console View.
 
So how's it going with"3"?
Have you heard a difference in the sound quality?
Have you checked out the Pantheon reverb?
 
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