Tracking levels

[Seeker of Rock]

Used to the TASCAM 488, but now I have new stuff I'm learning. Mackie 24.8...love the board, but experimenting and getting to know it with the MSR-16 (though the latter still has a few problems that it is going in for). Anyway, I want to make the most of the headroom of the board, and it has a lot of it. However, when I push the pres where they need to be, no redlines on the board meters, it pegs and distorts going into the MSR. I pull them down on the board going in, -10 range, and the sound is great, still peaks in the red on the MSR but doesn't max out and more importantly, doesn't distort.
I want to get all the signal I can out of the board, but what it is telling me and what the MSR is telling me are two different things. I trust the Mackie meters, but I trust my ear more. So anyone know what I am doing wrong?

 

[Dr ZEE]

uhhh.. I kinda' can't think straight at the moment. so just will drop a thought.
first of all, by "where they need to be, no redlines on the board meters do you mean around 0/+4/+7? And when you do that you get overload at MSR? ...but when your levels on the board are around -10 - everything is cool at MSR?
The thing may be here: your board's subgroups outs (which I guess you use???) are set for +4 operating level. I don't know how it is on mackie board. you may have there a push-button switch +4/-10.


I may completely miss the 'target here'

/later

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Last, first. Got the button option on the board, have the -10 engaged as they are RCA in/out on the MSR. Peaking maybe in the +2, +4 at most according to the L/R out meters on the board (have a meter bridge coming soon), but board Main L/R meters is what I'm monitoring right now, no buss assignments.

Oh yeah, worthy to note, the monitor mix which is direct from the recording channel inputs (1-6 for the DM Pro kit) monitors the kick and snare softly when I set the "proper" levels according to the meters and monitor mix. When I bring the track levels down on kick and snare (chs 1 and 2), L/R meters drop into the lower to mid greens on the board, can't hear kick and snare well in the monitor mix, but doesn't peg the reds on the MSR.

I should what the problem is, but I don't.

 

[Dr ZEE]

heh heh... headache
I've mentioned +4/-10 switch ...the one on the back for subgroups outs (you must have two of them there 1/4 and 5/8 ...or something). But this is only for the situation if you use subgroups outs when recording to MSR. If you use channel direct outs... then I guess the nominal level is +4 and the fader is your level setup.... so what you do - you ignore what ever level on you board.... just set the 'right level' on MSR.
AH! The bridge is must have, as I can tell, btw... it helps allot practically.
did you get the damn manual ...lol
if you don't have it I think you can d-load pdf from mackie.com ...get into their support section..it has to be there
if you have the manual... go to the section which maybe titled something like "Input/Output configuration"... it maybe somewhere at the end of the manual. What you have there is all nominal levels of all in/outs of your board and attenuation options. This simply gives you quick guide when setting up the board. I almost sure that mackie's manual has some basic guide on how to set the levels and maybe some most common situations tips.
I deal myself with behringer mx8000 board...which is kind of crippled copy of mackie.... very similar structure

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Got the manual. I have read several times on the shitter (yeah, no offense to Mackie, but that's where I read all of anything I need to retain). This is probably not so much a manual-reading thing, but I could be wrong. Manual says to set the levels by hum per channel. Did that with the monitors, and cool. Problem happens when going into the MSR. Tech said he calibrated all channels...hmmm. I know how to get around it, again the ears thing, but just wonder why it is.

 

[arjoll]

Got the manual. I have read several times on the shitter (yeah, no offense to Mackie, but that's where I read all of anything I need to retain). This is probably not so much a manual-reading thing, but I could be wrong. Manual says to set the levels by hum per channel. Did that with the monitors, and cool. Problem happens when going into the MSR. Tech said he calibrated all channels...hmmm. I know how to get around it, again the ears thing, but just wonder why it is.

It does sound like a +4/-10 mismatch somewhere, my brain isn't in the right gear at the moment (setting up printers all afternoon). So exactly which outputs have you plugged into the MSR?

 

[Dr ZEE]

It does sound like a +4/-10 mismatch somewhere, my brain isn't in the right gear at the moment (setting up printers all afternoon). So exactly which outputs have you plugged into the MSR?

yeah, which outputs we are dealing here with?
it's kinda' funny..lol, that couple guys with "brain not in the right gear" at the moment are on it Collectively we can build the rocket and fly to the moon

/respects

 

[Seeker of Rock]

It does sound like a +4/-10 mismatch somewhere, my brain isn't in the right gear at the moment (setting up printers all afternoon). So exactly which outputs have you plugged into the MSR?

Damnit. (forgive my cursing). I live my wife and kids that I love dearly, but unfortately my gear room is not locked. I set the levels on the Mackie after reading the MSR specs and guess what. You guys are right. Besides having to write down my fader levels for the kit, EQ as well because I know they will be messed with (wife says "I DO watch the kids and don't let them get anywhere near your stuff") I call "bullshit" on her. Engaged the -10. I would love to try it and let you know. Maybe I will in a few minutes. Kids are sleeping, but I that is the good thing about an electronic kit. Needless to say, I'll bet that was it. I tell you truthfully I had it set for the MSR. GREAT call. Need to to a test of course, but it looks like the smoking gun has been found.
Thanks again, gentlemen.

 

[Dr ZEE]

Engaged the -10..

roger that.
....
now, may I suggest?

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Shit man. Still figuring out this big-ass setup I thought was such a good idea to buy . Alright, -10 engaged but that is for the returns, and it allows me to hear the recorded tracks at much greater decibel than the +4. That part is simple enough and I get itm -10 kicks in the boost. However that is only on the returns. My levels are still so fricking hot going into the MSR. Not on the board, the board is only reading it would seem about half the available headroom on the L/R meter, but shit it is pegging the poor MSR. Damn these complicated machines. But thank God for them at the same time.

 

[grweldon]

Don't know how relevent this is...but....if the Mackie levels are set according to the level set proceedure, zero DB on the meters is zero DB. What a novel idea...eh? Mackie doesn't buy the -10/+4 stuff. When the channel strips are calibrated according to the manual, zero is zero. Could explain you problems...yes?

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Well, in all honesty I think my problem is two-fold...I have the meter bridge on order, but is not due for another couple of weeks. This will obviously help me (for $650 it damn well better ) help me determine the exact levels coming in from my DM PRO kit. The DM Pro has every sort of executable variation known to most average men, which I humbly claim to be. I have set the DM Pro levels to sound good through the board and out to the monitors, by ear. Now when I send those six channels (assigned as such 1-kick, 2-snare, 3/4 hats open/closed and 127 points in between, 5 toms, 6 ride/bell and crash) to the Mackie, again, everything is hunky dory on the main levels and sounds great in the monitor mix. I obviously have them hooked per channel to the MSR and back to the coordinating channel. The levels on the MSR are reading thing inputs, not only reading but recording levels that I can hear to verify the red pegs, that the initial input setup did not tell me I was going to get. I can obviously do one of two things....lower the input despite on the "trim" on snare as it is a hot signal or pull back the channel fader, but still not really being able to read what I believe I hear. Or I can lower the input on the channel, even though I can barely hear the snare in monitor when I do and I am NOT bussing this so it should be a true signal, which sucks for playing but does NOT peg the channel LEDs on the MSR, and by my ears I can tell it is not the LEDs on the MSR that are out of wack...distortion, though slight, is obvious when they are pegged on the reel and are played back through the board into the monitor.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Oh yeah, and God Damnit (sorry for using His name in vain) the transients I am seeing that pop up on my MSR when in idle occur on ch 2 sometime, ch 16 sometimes, a handful of others as well...intermittent. My first reel machine, thought I bought well, felt good about it, but logic would say if ch. 2 gets 'noise' intermittently that registers not only to the MSR but back on Mackie's ch 2, on so on for the rest, but especially on ch 2, ch 2 my be a little more sensitive, or defective, but obviously hot enough to be registering without any signal except for the inherent signals that come with common current, then amplified if ch 2 is reading hot. Hmmmm. Ch. 2 is where my snare is recordining really hot, among other issues. Damnit, again, I just wish I could get to know the shit working properly, that way I can have a decent idea from experience of what is happening, instead of never getting a good start without the machine having a mind of its own where I don't know where the f&$k to start. I love the overall sound of this machine, it is awesome...I just want it without all of the issues that it has Calgon, take me away!!!!

Taking it to the tech Thursday. I really hope this guy is not wasting my money. In my opinion, he should have caught this, if it is the machine and not something on my end, when I took it to him after I purchased. That is WHY I took it to him...to tell me what it needed. Something is slipping through the cracks somewhere. He is an authorized TASCAm tech, don't know how much that means.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

alright, more info if you want it...tech sheet reads among other repairs..."trouble shoot and repair (2) amp cards...replace Q13, 14, 15
Understand that some, sure, but I know he told me the parts were not available from TASCAM, he "made it his mission and only charged me a couple of hours ($125) to do that although he spent most of the day. He was consulting TASCAM according to him. He is really a nice guy, but without having that kind of detailed knowledge, I don't know what he did and why he didn't catch what I am. He did tell me that he didn't check the NR system, and that to me seems like an obvious oversight when someone wants their new "old" piece of equipment professionally checked out. He did have a Studer, an MCI, and several other reels in his shop and was recommended by two local studios, so who knows.

 

[Seeker of Rock]

BTW, I love you analog gentlemen, please don't think bad of me for venting, but clearly I have been frustratedly venting. Thanks for all of the advice

 

[arjoll]

Still figuring out this big-ass setup I thought was such a good idea to buy .

Don't dispair! You've bought good equipment - I'd love to have that setup (although I'd probably go for the dbx MSR16, simply beacuse I have two 10 1/2 reels recorded on one that I'd love to remaster sometime.

Alright, -10 engaged but that is for the returns, and it allows me to hear the recorded tracks at much greater decibel than the +4. That part is simple enough and I get itm -10 kicks in the boost.

Makes sense, although as you've found out its not causing your main problem.

However that is only on the returns. My levels are still so fricking hot going into the MSR. Not on the board, the board is only reading it would seem about half the available headroom on the L/R meter, but shit it is pegging the poor MSR. Damn these complicated machines. But thank God for them at the same time.

OK, have just downloaded the manual for your Mackie. On page 17 you'll see info about levels on the submaster/tape outputs - there's two +4/-10 switches, one for each block of 4 channels. If you're feeding the MSR16 from these submix outputs make sure both buttons are IN.

I've had a look through the manual to find a specific level for the direct outs, but can't see one stated. On page 54 there's a a diagram of the gain structure. Look at the middle diagram - this seems to imply that the mixer internally is working to 0 dBu - based on this its 10 dB more than your MSR is expecting. A way of checking this would be to run tone through one of the channels, set all the faders to zero, and adjust the gain on the channel to get -10 on the output metering. If this is 0 on the MSR then that's the problem.

Two options - run through the groups and just do 8 tracks at a time, or look at putting pads between the outputs and the MSR.

Hope this helps, please keep us all informed.

Cya
Andrew

 

[Dr ZEE]

I've had a look through the manual to find a specific level for the direct outs, but can't see one stated.

i would guess it's nominal +4. but then again, what ever it is...nothing really you can do about it.... just set the level 'right' with the fader watching/monitoring rec.level on your recorder, when using dir.outs.
**********

Mackie doesn't buy the -10/+4 stuff. When the channel strips are calibrated according to the manual, zero is zero.

grweldon, could you explain.
Here's quote from Mackie's manual (p.20/Metering):
"When the meters read 0dB the level will actually be +4dBu at the outputs (or -10dBV at subs if you ingage their +4/-10 switch)"

 

[themaddog]

The LR meter and the MSR will not and should not match. The LR meter is meant for all of the channels, not just one or two. Think of it this way, if you have a single snare drum that is peaking at 0 on the LR meter, then when you add another fifteen instruments, you'll be WAY into clipping. That's why a direct out, with the LR at that level, is way too loud for your MSR-16.

Hope that helps,
-MD

 

[FALKEN]

if it is a +4/-10 issue, the MSR should read zero when the mackie is around -12. so -10 is close. if you were to run the MSR on the channel inserts of tracks 1-16 (or line-ins if you are using external preamps), you can use the MSR as your LED meters. you probably want to set the faders to zero and adjust the gain to where the MSR is happiest. also, using this configuration, you can monitor off of the MSR, which is what you need to be doing.

 

[grweldon]

Dr. Zee...

I've probably misinterpreted what was being said with what I read. After further reading, I find that on my 1642 VLZ Pro, There is a switch for the main XLR outputs to determine output level at either -10 or +4DB.

My comment related to the main output and channel strip meters and here is the section, quoted from the 1642 manual.... my comments are enclosed in brackets [...]

Quote...

"Meters vs. Reality

You may already be an expert at the world of +4 (+4dBu-1.23V) and -10 (-10dBV=0.32V) [probably a typo? should be -10dBu?] operating levels. Basically, what makes a mixer one or the other is the relative 0dB VU (or 0VU) chosen for the meter display. A +4 mixer, with a +4dBu signal pouring out the back will actually read 0VU on its meter display. A -10 mixer, with a -10dBV [there it is again] signal trickling out, will read, you guessed it, 0VU on its meter display. So when is 0VU actually 0dBu? Right now! At the risk of creating another standard, Mackie's compact mixers address the need of both crowds by calling things as they are: 0dbu (0.775V) at the output shows as 0VU on the meter display. What could be easier? By the way, the most wonderful thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from. Thanks to the 1642-VLZ PRO's wide dynamic range, you can get a good mix with peaks flashing anywhere between -20 and +10db on the meter display. Most amplifiers clib at about +10dB, and some recorders aren't so forgiving either. For best real-world results, try to keep your peaks between 0 and +7. Please remember: Audio meter displays are just tools to help assure you that your levels are in the ballpark. You don't have to stare at them (unless you want to)."

End Quote...

From what I gather in this explaination, this may only be true for the compact Mackie mixers and not an 8-bus Mackie. I probably opened my mouth when I shouldn't have, but at the time I thought it may have been relevent....