Torn Between Interfaces!

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BDiNkY30

BDiNkY30

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As of now i am using an old generation Mbox that i bough a solid 5 or six years ago. I am pretty knowlegable in compression and Eq and my guitar tone remains flat as hell. I have been looking into the presonus Firestudio tube, but at the same time i have seen other companies that i haven't ever really had any user feedback from. Basically I am looking for something that will deepen my tone and also alow me more inputs so that i am able to record multi tracked drums. My budget is between $500-$800. I'm open for any recomendations.. As far as my style of music goes I love versitility and i play everything from progressive metal to jazz and ballads.
 
As of now i am using an old generation Mbox that i bough a solid 5 or six years ago. I am pretty knowlegable in compression and Eq and my guitar tone remains flat as hell. I have been looking into the presonus Firestudio tube, but at the same time i have seen other companies that i haven't ever really had any user feedback from. Basically I am looking for something that will deepen my tone and also alow me more inputs so that i am able to record multi tracked drums. My budget is between $500-$800. I'm open for any recomendations.. As far as my style of music goes I love versitility and i play everything from progressive metal to jazz and ballads.
I've got my eyes on an m-audio 2626, seems to fit what I need, 8 ins/outs/expandable/midi etc.

But I'm not sure an interface should "give" you anything; in my mind you want the interface to be as transparent as possible...while obviously not detracting from the sound?

How are you recording the guitar? Deepening tone (as subjective as that is) wouldn't be something I'd think requires purchasing a better converter/interface. Maybe a nice preamp instead?
 
I use a PreSonus Firestudio 2626 and have had zero problems with it. There seems to have been a bunch of people that had driver issue, somehow I lucked out. I think partly because I purpose built my DAW based on known good hardware that was listed on the PreSonus Forums.

The only complaint I have is that their control panel software isn't the most intuitive piece of software that I have ever dealt with.
 
I use a PreSonus Firestudio 2626 and have had zero problems with it. There seems to have been a bunch of people that had driver issue, somehow I lucked out. I think partly because I purpose built my DAW based on known good hardware that was listed on the PreSonus Forums.

The only complaint I have is that their control panel software isn't the most intuitive piece of software that I have ever dealt with.

Well my DAW is Logic 8 and I'm obviously running it on mac. I have been told by my local Sam Ash that The fireStudio tube by presonus add's warmth because of the two super inputs that suposively have very nice pres. As far as a preamp goes what would you recomend that is in my price range??
 
Well my DAW is Logic 8 and I'm obviously running it on mac. I have been told by my local Sam Ash that The fireStudio tube by presonus add's warmth because of the two super inputs that suposively have very nice pres. As far as a preamp goes what would you recomend that is in my price range??

I record From the emulated line out on my VOX straight into the TRS line in on my Mbox (which i believe is a piece of shit)
 
I have a foucsrite saffire pro 40.
Love it, lots of ins and outs, just tracked some awesome sounding drums with it.
Clean preamps.
That's my vote.

That being said, the preamps aren't anything but clean. I have to go to external units to add color. I've been having trouble getting a really satisfying vocal sound with the focusrite preamps because I'm used to using a friend's really nice vintage stuff for vocal recording.

I don't have experience with the firestudio tube, but I'm guessing that, at this price point, you're not gonna end up with really super pretty sounding tube distortion on those two channels. You'll have eight equally clean channels of preamplification, with two you can dial up to something a little dirtier if you want to. But don't expect those two channels to come anywhere near a $500-$1000 boutique tube preamp.

Just to reiterate, though, I am absolutely guessing/assuming/talking out of my ass with the above paragraph, and have no experience whatsoever with that particular unit.
 
I have a foucsrite saffire pro 40.
Love it, lots of ins and outs, just tracked some awesome sounding drums with it.
Clean preamps.
That's my vote.

That being said, the preamps aren't anything but clean. I have to go to external units to add color. I've been having trouble getting a really satisfying vocal sound with the focusrite preamps because I'm used to using a friend's really nice vintage stuff for vocal recording.

I don't have experience with the firestudio tube, but I'm guessing that, at this price point, you're not gonna end up with really super pretty sounding tube distortion on those two channels. You'll have eight equally clean channels of preamplification, with two you can dial up to something a little dirtier if you want to. But don't expect those two channels to come anywhere near a $500-$1000 boutique tube preamp.

Just to reiterate, though, I am absolutely guessing/assuming/talking out of my ass with the above paragraph, and have no experience whatsoever with that particular unit.

hahah well you sure do seem to know the gist of it, and thats more than i know soooo... as far as preamps go what would u recommend to add some color and beef to my guitar and vocal tone that goes for a reasonable price? And something that also has enough inputs for a reasonable size drum kit... no less than 4
 
Also,
If your mbox is 24 bit/ 96kHz, you're getting the same sound from it that you'll get from any other interface with the Amp line out setup you described. That is, the Vox is doing all the audio work, and the Mbox is just doing the AD conversion, which is gonna be about the same on most interfaces until you start spending the big bucks on the high end AD converters (like Lynx or Apogee).

Even if the mbox is only converting at, like, 44.1 kHz, I believe that as long as you have that 24 bits to work with, you're gonna get a really close to similar sound.

I would, if I were you, find an interface in the $500-$600 price range and then save the rest and a little more on top of it and get yourself a really decent mono preamp (I just had a chance to work with the True P-Solo and it was awesome. Costs about the same as a lot of the interfaces you're probably looking at right now, but it's what I'm buying as soon as I've saved up the money for it.) That way, you're set up to get some decent drum sounds, and the rest of your tracking you can do one track at a time through that preamp.
 
Also,
If your mbox is 24 bit/ 96kHz, you're getting the same sound from it that you'll get from any other interface with the Amp line out setup you described. That is, the Vox is doing all the audio work, and the Mbox is just doing the AD conversion, which is gonna be about the same on most interfaces until you start spending the big bucks on the high end AD converters (like Lynx or Apogee).

Even if the mbox is only converting at, like, 44.1 kHz, I believe that as long as you have that 24 bits to work with, you're gonna get a really close to similar sound.

I would, if I were you, find an interface in the $500-$600 price range and then save the rest and a little more on top of it and get yourself a really decent mono preamp (I just had a chance to work with the True P-Solo and it was awesome. Costs about the same as a lot of the interfaces you're probably looking at right now, but it's what I'm buying as soon as I've saved up the money for it.)

I know that it is obviously 24 bit but im not sure how many Hz for the simple reason that i have no idea what generation Mbox i have so im not sure of the model.. I bought it long ago when i knew absolutely nothing about recording/editing... how can i find that out??
 
You know, I'm not entirely sure. You could just google the different models of Mbox and look for pictures, try and find the one that looks like yours.
I guess you don't still have the documentation that came with it, do you?
That would have all that in there.
In all honesty, it probably won't matter if you're definitely upgrading your interface. I don't think there's anything being made right now in your price range that doesn't do at least 24 bit 96 kHz. I seriously doubt the Mbox does AD conversion at anything less than 44.1 kHz, as that's standardized for CD quality, and I doubt they'd sell anything that converts at a lower sample rate than the media their customers are most likely to put the finished product on.
That being said, I doubt you'll notice a difference track to track between 44.1 and 96. However, there is an argument to be made that, as you build up a mix with more and more tracks, the quality of your AD conversion becomes more and more noticeable.
 
I'm not too keen on numbers when it comes to this type of thing (hence why im in this thread) I know what the standard's are but (and i feel like a pain in the ass asking you to explain this to me) but in terms of sound quality could you explain how the 44.1 k, 24 bit , 96khz comes into play...and now that you've brought to my attention that a preamp will probably do what i want, would u recommend keeping the Mbox and buying a preamp that is in the price range that i explained??(i found the specs for the Mbox) It does not operate at 96k and it has 2 focusrite preamps in it.
 
Ok. Having just finished typing this, I feel compelled to tell you that I won't be hurt if you don't want to read it. Just let me know and I'll stop.:D

What the numbers mean:
Your audio is like a film. Film is not actually moving images, it's just a whole bunch of still images that, when looked at back to back to back in quick succession create the illusion of movement.
The 44.1 vs. 96k (I think I might have been wrong about that being kHz. It's just K as in thousand) is the number of samples taken per second - the number of still images in the film per second. More samples means more detail and less audio smudging (Think of filming a hand waving rapidly. If you only have, say, ten frames in a second, it's just going to look like a big blur. Twenty frames and it becomes a little less blurry. Etc...). Like I said before, you most likely won't notice the difference between a single track recorded at 44.1 vs. 96, but as you layer multiple tracks into a mix, that added detail makes itself more apparent by allowing more tracks to sit cleanly together.

The 24 bit vs. 16 bit thing goes hand in hand with the sample rate in that each sample that is taken in a second (whether it is 44.1K or 96K) is composed of that many bits. A bit is your basic piece of computer information and it can only carry the minimal amount of information - on or off (1 or 0). Best for later if you start thinking of this information in term of bit depth.
So, if your interface did AD conversion at only 1-bit, then each sample that was taken could have only one of two possible depths - 1 or 0. Bump that up to 2-bits, and you now have samples that can be 00, 01, 10, or 11 - four possible depths. 4 bits, suddenly you've got 16 possible sample sizes: 0000, 0001, 0011, 0111, 1000, 1001, 1011, 1111, 1101, 1100, etc... (write them all out if you don't beliove me).

So, keep in mind that you are trying to use these two pieces of information to approximate a sound wave. So, try drawing a sound wave type curve (just, you know, like a sin wave looking thing). Pretend that the curve you just drew is exactly one second of audio. Slice it into eight even pieces along the horizontal axis, and draw a point at the height of the curve at each of those slices. You now have a picture of what your audio would be represented by if you recorded at a sample rate of 8 (as opposed to the standard 44,100. We're simplifying because 44,000 slices is a lot to draw). Now, slice it into 4 even slices along the vertical axis. For each of the points you drew at the horizontal slices, move them to one of these four heights. This is waht your audio would look like if you recorded at 2-bits with eight samples per second. If you connect these eight dots, you'll notice that they don't look very much like your curve.
As you increase these numbers notice how it improves the resemblance of your approximation to the actual sound wave. More slices along the vertical axis (higher bit depth) means it's easier to differentiate between two adjacent slices that have similar height. More slices along the horizontal axis (higher sample rate) means the line you end up drawing to connect the dots gets closer to the roundness of an actual curve.
So, a couple notes. The bit depth ultimately determines your dynamic range. This is because the higher the bit depth, the more differentiation there is between absolute silence (all zeros) and clipping (all ones).
Also, this explains why you absolutely never want to clip in a digital setting. Once you've reached the absolute top of your dynamic range (all ones), you cant cram any more information in there. You can't just suddenly jump to 25-bits, and any individual bit can only tell you one thing. So digital clipping just completely cuts off the tops of your sound waves and makes for ugly sounding distortion.

... Jesus that was a lot.:D
I'll answer the rest of what you asked after I smoke a cigarette. And let me know if anything I wrote wasn't clear - I can try and draw a picture, see if it helps any.
 
So, as far as your interface questions go:
What is your mic situation? If you really want to improve your guitar tone, you're gonna need to start micing your cabinet. Those preamps aren't going to do a thing for your line out tone, no matter what you buy.
Honestly, you can get some darn good drum sounds with just two mics, if you have the right two mics, so that isn't necessarily a reason to upgrade your interface.
That being said, it's easier to get good drum sounds in a really crappy room or with a really crappy sounding drum set by close micing everything and then using drum replacement software like drumagog, and you'd need several inputs for that.
The new interface then nice preamp plan was based on an assumption that you had at least a couple decent mics. For guitar, you can't go wrong with an SM57, but it's nice to have a pretty good large diaphragm condenser as well.
I won't try and talk about any specific mics besides the sm57 because I don't know your budget and I don't have a very broad range of experience with a whole lot of mics. Plus, there's a whole forum dedicated to them here.
The preamps in your Mbox are probably as good as anything you'll get from an interface with more preamps in your price range, so you have to decide whether you'd rather record more than two inputs at once or you'd rather be able to record one really nice sounding input at a time.
Breaking it down, if you keep the Mbox, you could get the True P-solo for around $500 (or some other mono preamp in that range - Grace makes one that's supposed to be really nice. There are also a couple of two channel preamps in that price range that are supposed to be pretty good - check out the Auteur from Black Lion Audio), an SM57 for about a hundred bucks, and probably a pretty good condenser with what's left over.
I guess without knowing your mic locker, I should probably stop for now instead of just throwing out suggestions.
 
Now, everything you've said makes sense to some extent. However, let me interject with my usual contemplations. Now....you say that you never want to clip in a digital setting because all you'll get is ugly sounding distortion. Some will agree, some won't (I'm sure) that's the nature of the beast.

......but! What if I've got this jam that I'm working on and I determine that ugly sounding distortion is what my lead part needs to give it JUST the sound that I want. Would it be okay to do it then? Or do I still absolutely never want to clip in a digital setting?
 
Man, I try to avoid blanket rules besides the ones that force you to explore. "never say never," "only way to learn is to do," etc... All that cliched crap.:D

Then I go messing it up by saying never do something.

It's a generally well known "rule" that you shouldn't clip in the digital domain, and I just wanted to point out the reasoning behind it. It doesn't work like analog distortion, with the rich harmonics and the warmth and the whatnot. You absolutely should do it at least once so you know what it sounds like. You absolutely should use it if you feel like it's what's right for the song. You absolutely will not break anything by clipping digitally.
Thank you, sir, for correcting me in my overzealousness.:)
 
Thanks for taking it like a champ! lol I'm pretty opinionated myself and I find it hard sometimes not to start throwing out how I would do something. I try to stick with facts and then start off with "What I usually do is:" lol

Regardless, there are a million and one ways to mess up a recording. You just gotta roll your sleeves up and sit down and see what works best for you.
 
Ok. Having just finished typing this, I feel compelled to tell you that I won't be hurt if you don't want to read it. Just let me know and I'll stop.:D

What the numbers mean:
Your audio is like a film. Film is not actually moving images, it's just a whole bunch of still images that, when looked at back to back to back in quick succession create the illusion of movement.
The 44.1 vs. 96k (I think I might have been wrong about that being kHz. It's just K as in thousand) is the number of samples taken per second - the number of still images in the film per second. More samples means more detail and less audio smudging (Think of filming a hand waving rapidly. If you only have, say, ten frames in a second, it's just going to look like a big blur. Twenty frames and it becomes a little less blurry. Etc...). Like I said before, you most likely won't notice the difference between a single track recorded at 44.1 vs. 96, but as you layer multiple tracks into a mix, that added detail makes itself more apparent by allowing more tracks to sit cleanly together.

The 24 bit vs. 16 bit thing goes hand in hand with the sample rate in that each sample that is taken in a second (whether it is 44.1K or 96K) is composed of that many bits. A bit is your basic piece of computer information and it can only carry the minimal amount of information - on or off (1 or 0). Best for later if you start thinking of this information in term of bit depth.
So, if your interface did AD conversion at only 1-bit, then each sample that was taken could have only one of two possible depths - 1 or 0. Bump that up to 2-bits, and you now have samples that can be 00, 01, 10, or 11 - four possible depths. 4 bits, suddenly you've got 16 possible sample sizes: 0000, 0001, 0011, 0111, 1000, 1001, 1011, 1111, 1101, 1100, etc... (write them all out if you don't beliove me).

So, keep in mind that you are trying to use these two pieces of information to approximate a sound wave. So, try drawing a sound wave type curve (just, you know, like a sin wave looking thing). Pretend that the curve you just drew is exactly one second of audio. Slice it into eight even pieces along the horizontal axis, and draw a point at the height of the curve at each of those slices. You now have a picture of what your audio would be represented by if you recorded at a sample rate of 8 (as opposed to the standard 44,100. We're simplifying because 44,000 slices is a lot to draw). Now, slice it into 4 even slices along the vertical axis. For each of the points you drew at the horizontal slices, move them to one of these four heights. This is waht your audio would look like if you recorded at 2-bits with eight samples per second. If you connect these eight dots, you'll notice that they don't look very much like your curve.
As you increase these numbers notice how it improves the resemblance of your approximation to the actual sound wave. More slices along the vertical axis (higher bit depth) means it's easier to differentiate between two adjacent slices that have similar height. More slices along the horizontal axis (higher sample rate) means the line you end up drawing to connect the dots gets closer to the roundness of an actual curve.
So, a couple notes. The bit depth ultimately determines your dynamic range. This is because the higher the bit depth, the more differentiation there is between absolute silence (all zeros) and clipping (all ones).
Also, this explains why you absolutely never want to clip in a digital setting. Once you've reached the absolute top of your dynamic range (all ones), you cant cram any more information in there. You can't just suddenly jump to 25-bits, and any individual bit can only tell you one thing. So digital clipping just completely cuts off the tops of your sound waves and makes for ugly sounding distortion.

... Jesus that was a lot.:D
I'll answer the rest of what you asked after I smoke a cigarette. And let me know if anything I wrote wasn't clear - I can try and draw a picture, see if it helps any.

I really appreciate you explaining that in depth. Now i have a much clearer outlook on things.
 
Glad I could help. Hope it wasn't too disorganized to follow.
 
So, as far as your interface questions go:
What is your mic situation? If you really want to improve your guitar tone, you're gonna need to start micing your cabinet. Those preamps aren't going to do a thing for your line out tone, no matter what you buy.
Honestly, you can get some darn good drum sounds with just two mics, if you have the right two mics, so that isn't necessarily a reason to upgrade your interface.
That being said, it's easier to get good drum sounds in a really crappy room or with a really crappy sounding drum set by close micing everything and then using drum replacement software like drumagog, and you'd need several inputs for that.
The new interface then nice preamp plan was based on an assumption that you had at least a couple decent mics. For guitar, you can't go wrong with an SM57, but it's nice to have a pretty good large diaphragm condenser as well.
I won't try and talk about any specific mics besides the sm57 because I don't know your budget and I don't have a very broad range of experience with a whole lot of mics. Plus, there's a whole forum dedicated to them here.
The preamps in your Mbox are probably as good as anything you'll get from an interface with more preamps in your price range, so you have to decide whether you'd rather record more than two inputs at once or you'd rather be able to record one really nice sounding input at a time.
Breaking it down, if you keep the Mbox, you could get the True P-solo for around $500 (or some other mono preamp in that range - Grace makes one that's supposed to be really nice. There are also a couple of two channel preamps in that price range that are supposed to be pretty good - check out the Auteur from Black Lion Audio), an SM57 for about a hundred bucks, and probably a pretty good condenser with what's left over.
I guess without knowing your mic locker, I should probably stop for now instead of just throwing out suggestions.

Okay well my "mic locker" is within the confines of a 7 piece samson drum mic kit. I also have a piece of shit MXL 990 that i got free when i baught my guitar. I recently started micing my amp with it and it seems to capture much more of the highs and lows that i am looking for. Though it's quality is very limited and misses alot of the harmonics and such. I've been told that Sm57's are basically standard for micing a cab and i will most likely pick one of those up soon. As far as you explaining Drumagog, i have Addictive drums by xln audio and the samples sound great! very natural BUT! they have no depth and dont stand out in the mix no matter how well i compress and eq them. I'm pretty sure that you could set it up the same way as you do drumagog(thats besides the fact tho)I most likely want to go for a 2 channel pre for the simple fact that when i do get a Multi i/0 interface i can run the snare and kick through the pre then the rest straight in. What should i look for in a preamp that would have 2 channels and suffice micing drums and guitar??
 
There are a lot of really nice stereo preamps out there that are absolutely in your price range. I think what you want to look for is probably a clean signal, good transient response, and the ability to add some grit if you want it. Another thing to look at in a preamp is a DI jack. That is, one with a jack specifically designed for taking a signal straight from a guitar or bass. A DI'd guitar through a good pre can sound so much better than the line out on your amp, especially when you want just a clean rhythm part. I think I mentioned it before, but I've heard good things about the Auteur from Black Lion Audio. I've heard it's a little noisy when you crank the gain all the way up, but you shouldn't need to do that on loud sources like drums and electric guitars.
http://www.blacklionaudio.com/Products/Black+Lion+Audio+Auteur+Preamp
It doesn't have a DI, but you can get one for about $100 from Radial:
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ProDI/
that sounds great, if you end up deciding you want that.
Another stereo preamp I've heard good things about is the RNP from FMR Audio:
http://www.fmraudio.com/RNP8380.htm
It does have two hi-z (DI) inputs, and is supposed to have a pretty nice clean sound.

One thing to consider would be going a little cheaper with your preamp - The M-Audio DMP3 and the ART MPA-II both seem to get pretty good reviews. Then, with the money you saved on the preamp, you could get a nicer couple of Mics. That 57 is gonna be essential, so go ahead and assume that cost. But if you look into some higher quality condensers, you'll be able to find some really nice ones in your price range. You can get a matched pair of small diaphragm condensers for anywhere from $200 to $500, and depending on the ones you get, they work great as drum overheads, or for stereo recording in general.
I really don't know enough about mics to make a definite suggestion here, but if you start looking around, shopping around for things in your price range, reading reviews (but not the ones on musiciansfriend and zzsounds or any of those other music megastore websites - I've usually found them to be less than reliable), you'll find something that looks like it'll work for you.

All that being said, the most important thing you can do to improve your sound is gonna be constantly reading and recording. Learn everything you can from reading online tutorials and books about recording, and at the same time, put it all into practice by doing it yourself. Try new things and use your ears to tell you what sounds good. In fact...
I'm gonna go ahead and capitalize this to make sure it's apparent that, despite everything I've said above, this is the most important thing I'm saying:
DON'T BUY A SINGLE THING UNTIL YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY SURE IT WILL IMPROVE YOUR SOUND. UNLESS YOU KNOW EVERY PIECE OF EQUIPMENT YOU ALREADY HAVE NOW BACKWARDS AND FORWARDS, INSIDE AND OUT, YOU WILL BE WASTING MONEY BY BUYING SOMETHING NEW. DON'T JUST BE SURE IT WILL IMPROVE YOUR SOUND, KNOW EXACTLY HOW IT WILL IMPROVE YOUR SOUND.
That $500 preamp is gonna look like a piece of crap if, after you get it, you realize that you could've been getting the sounds you wanted by having the amp and mic positioned in a slightly different way. The most important tools you have at your disposal are your ears and your brain. Practice practice practice, until you can justify your purchases completely, instead of just rationalizing them. I say this from experience. I still constantly have to stop myself from buying some new piece of equipment because it looks cool or probably does something I think I need. Until I'm sure that my current setup won't get me where I'm going, I leave the wallet in my pocket.


Jesus I'm long-winded.

One last thing:
before you buy any mics for drum recording (or with drum recording in mind), read up on mic positions and drum recording techniques. You can get a great sound with just a pair of mics - I just recorded a band and got great drum sounds in my living room with two mics. The more mics you add, the more control you have in the mixing phase over each individual drum. However, if you get the drums sounding great when you record them, then you don't need to do any more mixing. Plus, the more mics you have, the more you have to worry about introducing phase issues and ugly buildups of this or that kind of ambience. Just something to keep in mind.
 
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