Too Much Preamp Hiss When Fingerpicking On Acoustic Guitar

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ashcat_lt said:
I think that all of the discussion re: recording levels is off base. I mean, it's good general practice, but I don't see how it helps this particular OP.
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You might be right or wrong, but we don't know. We don't know if the noise just gets louder when he turns up his pre-amp, or if the noise is the result of turning up the pre-amo.

Either way, it's good practice, and it can't help that the OP thinks he has to "Crank" his pre-amps up. That's why I was sort of dwelling on the recording levels, and for some reason, he doesn't seem to want to answer that.
 
I guess it comes down to the fact that it is very difficult to diagnose "problems" over the internet, especially when presented with such limited details. It's all just a shot in the dark until and unless those trying to help ask probing questions and the OP actually provides meaningful answers.

In this instance, mic sensitivity was my first guess since there are so few preamps out there nowadays with truly poor noise specs, but I suppose that does make an "ass" out of "u" and "me" just as much as anything else in this thread.
 
@RAMI

Sorry! I wasn't trying to avoid the question.. I contacted the guy who modded the pre-amp to inquire about the problem and he said, "Make sure the output gain pot is all the way open.". So that's the reason I was talking about 'cranking' up the pre-amp.

Also, yes, the noise gets louder and louder as I turn up the amp. No it's not the computer. I put a pretty heavy blanket over it which helps a lot. :D

Besides getting a more 'sensetive' mic. I still don't understand what the problem may be. the recordings always turn out so noisy...
 
afrothunder89 said:
I contacted the guy who modded the pre-amp to inquire about the problem and he said, "Make sure the output gain pot is all the way open.".
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Sounds like poor gain staging to me. You should set the output to where it needs to be. what are the little flashing lights on the GAP-73 showing you when you're recording? Ideally, they should be lighting up the +10 but not the Clip light.
 
afrothunder89 said:
Hey! I'm still around. You folks are helping out immensely, thank you so very much.



Alan, I think you may be onto something here (as all of you are). Are condenser mics more likely to need gain but produce less noise? Am I wrong in this assessment? And what would you recommend?
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I thought of this as you stated that you are playing very quiet finger picking, the sensitivity of the 2 mics you have may not be sensitive enough to pick this up as they were designed for loud environments. Even different condenser mics have different noise floors and sensitivity. For example a normal strummed acoustic may be fine with any of my condensers, but if it's a quiet finger pick I use a AKG C4000b (LDC) or a sennheiser ME40 (SDC) as both of these mics are very low noise and high gain.

However what the others are talking about in regard to gain staging is also relevant, I am a bit worried about the comment of turning up the output of the pre to full, I would think that this is trying to boost the signal via the internal mic pre amp circuit and it could get a little noisy above 7 or 8 however this may not be the case.

Alan..
 
3 pages of guesses, and the OP for some reason that I can't even imagine, refuses to answer one simple question. Why do we even bother?

I'm out. Enough time wasted.
 
afrothunder89 said:
@RAMI

Sorry! I wasn't trying to avoid the question.. I contacted the guy who modded the pre-amp to inquire about the problem and he said, "Make sure the output gain pot is all the way open.". So that's the reason I was talking about 'cranking' up the pre-amp.

Also, yes, the noise gets louder and louder as I turn up the amp. No it's not the computer. I put a pretty heavy blanket over it which helps a lot. :D

Besides getting a more 'sensetive' mic. I still don't understand what the problem may be. the recordings always turn out so noisy...
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Running a GAP 73 wide open is adding 80dB of gain to the mic's self noise, everything the mic picks up as well as 80dB of gain to the units own pre gain self noise

Typically at the very top of the gain range is where pres also become the most non linear and noisy too.

If you need 80dB of gain to get a close mic'd acoustic guitar to sit at around -18RMS level in your DAW software, then there is something unusual going on in your setup: Mics damaged, pointing the wrong way, wrong kind of cabling/connection in use, damage in the preamp etc, incorrect setup and gain staging of the soundcard and so on

just to put into perspective for you as well, dB is a logarithmic scale. Adding 80dB of gain is does not increase signal amplitude 80 times.
By adding 80dB of gain you actually are increasing the amplitude of the signal by a factor of 10,000. That's going to make any noise in the signal chain pretty apparent.

good info HERE
 
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Sometimes just adjusting where the mic is can get rid of the picking sounds. I've had similar issues, where the picking is way too loud. Especially if you are using a unidirectional mic, you can try pointing it towards the neck more than right at your picking hand. It will still grab the great sounds from the acoustic guitar without the clicking from picking.

Good luck!
 
I would try using a better mic. Try a nice condenser mic.
 
There can be many reasons of hum and noise:
1. noisy room,
2. noisy condenser mic (dynamic mics are almost quiet),
3. mic cable noise,
4. noisy preamp,
5. noisy AD convertor,
6. wrong processes in recording,
7. noisy DA convertor,
8. noisy monitor mixer,
9. noisy amplifier,
10. wrong gain structure,
11. external EMI/RFI interference,
12. AC power supply noise,
13. wrong connections - ground loops,
14. wrong equalization forcing higher frequencies,
15. weak original signal :)
etc.
 
Get rid of that preamp! just kidding - but if you are getting preamp hiss then your mic may not have enough output level - if this is your go to mic, then you might want to invest in the "Cloud Lifter" - it adds ~20db more output to your mic - meaning that you can turn down the preamp, thus eliminating HISS - if your preamp hisses at medium to low levels - throw that thing right in the trash and invest in a good one!
 
There are several things at play here. One is your preamp. You don't mention which one you have. But the purpose of a good preamp is to allow the initial signal to be amplified without the introduction of noise. I was using a great low budget/high quality Focusrite Twin Trak Pro with an impedance knob to match to the mic. You just keep turning it until your voice sounds the best (SM57's suddenly sounded like Neumanns). Next, there is your miking technique and the mic you are using. You don't mention either. So here's my suggestion that we discovered while recording a blind guitarist who used an old 1941 Gibson acoustic. WE used a small diaphragm condenser mic (Rode NT5) and we dropped it into the sound hole. We could hear all the fingerpicking just fine without the sharp attack of the strings. As a result we did NOT have to push the levels. Good luck,
Rod Norman

afrothunder89 said:
Hey guys, how can I eliminate this problem?

I'd love to be able to have a super clean recording of me gently plucking guitar strings, but everytime I do that, I have to crank up my preamp to componsate for the low volume which ends up introducing a lot of noise!

I can get a FAIRLY quiet recording when I'm doing strummy stuff...Maybe I'm not using my preamp correctly? Anyways, thanks in advance!
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ashcat_lt said:
I think that all of the discussion re: recording levels is off base.
Click to expand...
My reaction as well.

This can easily be made far more complicated than it is by taking into account things that aren't in the original question, or aren't likely (e.g.: "put your pet snakes in another room;" "don't sit next to a snare drum while monitoring at a high level").

The preamp produces a certain level of noise. The mic produces a certain level of signal. His problem is that the latter is closer to the former than he wants it to be.

Three obvious solutions:
- use a more sensitive mic
- get closer to it
- play louder.

The first sounds like a winner, particularly based on an earlier post from someone who apparently knows the mics the OP is using. As for the second and third, I suspect he's already done them to the extent possible.
 
I'd like to approach this from a little different angle and ask just how softly your finger picking is?
As I also have an extremely light touch when fingerpicking it requires my instrument to be more sensitive.
With my plywood Takamine it is imposible to record a decent level when playing softly. My Martin on the other hand, even strung with light gauge strings, produces more than enough amplitude to allow me to use a passive ribbon and still get a clean recording. If your style requires such light technique, you may need to accept the fact that your instrument might be insufficient for what your trying to do.....olduncledino
 
This is a good suggestion. Hugh Robjohns of SoundonSound found that the cloudlifter actually reduces noise, as well as boosts signal, when implemented in to your signal chain.

blund69 said:
Get rid of that preamp! just kidding - but if you are getting preamp hiss then your mic may not have enough output level - if this is your go to mic, then you might want to invest in the "Cloud Lifter" - it adds ~20db more output to your mic - meaning that you can turn down the preamp, thus eliminating HISS - if your preamp hisses at medium to low levels - throw that thing right in the trash and invest in a good one!
Click to expand...
 
This is a good suggestion. Hugh Robjohns of SoundonSound found that the cloudlifter actually reduces noise, as well as boosts signal, when implemented in to your signal chain.

blund69 said:
Get rid of that preamp! just kidding - but if you are getting preamp hiss then your mic may not have enough output level - if this is your go to mic, then you might want to invest in the "Cloud Lifter" - it adds ~20db more output to your mic - meaning that you can turn down the preamp, thus eliminating HISS - if your preamp hisses at medium to low levels - throw that thing right in the trash and invest in a good one!
Click to expand...
 
afrothunder89 said:
...gently plucking guitar strings, but everytime I do that, I have to crank up my preamp to componsate for the low volume which ends up introducing a lot of noise!
Click to expand...
1) All preamps and mics have self-noise and so have limits to how quiet a source they can record without noticeable hiss. Pay a lot for the right gear and it gets easier to deal with self-noise.

2) All recording spaces have "room tone" and often that includes high frequency sound that can be mistakenly attributed to the gear hiss. The more quiet the source, the louder the room tone appears. This is often hard to hear because we get used to the environmental sounds around us and our ears tend to filter them out. Mics hear it though and will point it out to you. That hiss may very well be a refrigerator in the next room or freeway traffic from a half mile away that you're so used to you don't hear it any more. Until you hear it through the microphone over your guitar, heh.



I agree with earlier posts that you're using the wrong mics for the situation. Get more sensitive mics. And l earn to fingerpick louder.
 
Hello everyone. I'm sure everyone (especially including RAMI) will be pleased to hear that I've found the root of the problem. The laptop.

For the past couple of months, I've been struggling heavily with getting good recordings with my gear. Besides the prevalence of heavy digital noise and hiss, the recordings themselves would sound brittle, and unnatural.

Just as I was about to completely give up, I decided on a whim to try a quick, and simple recording with the same gear, but on a different laptop. Install Ableton, hit record, and bam. Recordings sound clean as a whistle!

Now that I know what the problem is, it's a matter of finding out WHY the audio going into my laptop is sounding so awful.. I guess that is for another forum, but I just wanted to give an update!

In anycase, thanks for the help. And RAMI, be nice.

EDIT: I should make one thing clear that the issue with the laptop WAS NOT due to the fan or engine being loud.
 
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