Too many drum mic choices - which on which tom?

[RecordingMaster]

Surprise, surprise, another question from RecordingMaster! My tagline under my name, for those who haven't caught on, is to suggest calling myself a Master is sarcastic!

I've always had a CAD drum mic kit and never had much of a reason to change it, other than to get an SM57 for the snare and an AKG D112 for kick (which I have done). The pencils are still great as the OH's because it captures all the highs and lows I want and are crystal clear. That being said, my guitar player has pretty much left his spare 57 at my place indefinitely. So now I have two 57's to reach for on drums.

The mic choices I now have for toms are the following:
- CAD KBM412 Cardioid Dynamic Microphone meant for Kick or bass (note it does not have much attack in the high end, takes a LOT of eq on kick to get that "snap")
- x3 CAD TSM411 Supercardioid Dynamic Microphones (sounds terrible on floor toms, usable on rack toms)
- x2 Audio Technica XM9 Dynamic mics meant for "drums" (has a slightly larger diaphragm than the TSM411)
- x1 SM57

I have a maple kit with toms tuned mid-low. 12" rack tom, 16" floor tom and 18" floor tom

What mics on what tom would you suggest? I don't care if they're all different. I was thinking of trying the KBM412 on the 18", using a spare TSM411 for the snare bottom mic (which I never end up using anyways), a 57 on either the rack or the 16" floor tom and an xM9 on either rack or 16" floor.

I know you'll say "try them all", but it's hard when I'm alone (usually alone when setting up all my mics, etc), and my tracking room is on a separate floor and I have no transport control. Also, that's a lot of configurations to try out. I just want a general rumbling here on suggestions, and I'll try those first. If they work well first try, I'll look no further. If it aint broke, don't fix it.

Thanks for any suggestions!

 

[cezar11]

If you have an iphone/ipad or android phone.. try one of the wireless transport controls. Being a drummer myself, I have a rough time tracking by myself and my recording pc is only 15 feet away from the set. so I use this.. Saitara Software it was only 9 bucks for the ipad.. simply amazing. I found that tuning plays a much bigger role than mic selection in getting the sound you want so don't put all your eggs in a mic basket, you may be surprised at what de-tuning a single lug a half-turn makes.

A few suggestions for ya...

1. you could always just bring a single tom to your tracking room and try all your mics one at a time.

2. leave everything in your drum room and just let the tape roll. announce what mic you're using, then demo it. change mics, announce it to the room and demo.. wash, rinse, repeat. when you listen back to it, just skip around the track.. this will give the advantage of being able to A/B all the mics in a single take. if you just talk to your room.. it's pretty easy to annotate what changes your making so you have a good reference..

 

[RecordingMaster]

If you have an iphone/ipad or android phone.. try one of the wireless transport controls. Being a drummer myself, I have a rough time tracking by myself and my recording pc is only 15 feet away from the set. so I use this.. Saitara Software it was only 9 bucks for the ipad.. simply amazing. I found that tuning plays a much bigger role than mic selection in getting the sound you want so don't put all your eggs in a mic basket, you may be surprised at what de-tuning a single lug a half-turn makes.

A few suggestions for ya...

1. you could always just bring a single tom to your tracking room and try all your mics one at a time.

2. leave everything in your drum room and just let the tape roll. announce what mic you're using, then demo it. change mics, announce it to the room and demo.. wash, rinse, repeat. when you listen back to it, just skip around the track.. this will give the advantage of being able to A/B all the mics in a single take. if you just talk to your room.. it's pretty easy to annotate what changes your making so you have a good reference..

Hi there, thanks for the reply. I certainly don't put all my eggs in my mic basket. I've been playing over 15 years and definitely put a LOT of my focus into drum tuning, cymbal selection, always fresh heads, etc. I understand how important this is, which is why i have a small business on the side where I actually go to drummers' houses (most of the time older than me!) to tune their drums, set up angles, repairs, re-skin, etc.

As for ABC'ing everything, I know that will yield the best results, but setting the correct pre-amp level, etc for each mic will vary so I can't just let it roll. I probably will end up having to do this though. Thanks for the suggestions, mang!

EDIT: Forgot to mention I don't have an iphone, ipad or android phone. Just BB.

Anyone have any suggestions of which mics YOU would use on what?

 

[Tomm Williams]

You mention you have two pencil's and a 112. Why not try a 3-mic set-up?

 

[RecordingMaster]

You mention you have two pencil's and a 112. Why not try a 3-mic set-up?

For many reasons.
1) I record/mix mostly rock music. I am a drummer by trade, so I like to tailor the sound of each drum and blend with overheads, not rely on just overheads to capture everything. If I do that, I find the cymbals are always too loud for my tastes
2) Playing the cymbals quieter and drums louder will not fix the above issue. I like a full development and decay of a cymbal, and can't stand the weak sound produced when not struck loud enough for the cymbal to fully develop. I like larger cymbals, not dinky little crash cymbals that easily/quickly respond.
3) My room has low ceilings so it's pretty much treated to be a "dry" drum room. Since trying to capture most of the overall drums would rely on the overheads, the drums would have a lot of the room's character in the picture. Which I try to avoid since there is not a whole lot to be desired there.
4) If a certain tom or snare, etc isn't popping through the mix enough, eq'ing it in the overheads will also be eq'ing everything else in those overheads at that frequency.
5) I do a lot of ghost notes and like a separate reverb on the snare most of the time, which is not achievable only with a 3 mic setup. A four mic setup (adding mic on snare) would make the toms get lost. I like my tom fills to be heard (or else why play them?) and not just be muddy rumbling filling in the background, like a lot of older classic recordings sound like to me (LOVE the sound, but not for my own style).

Just wondering what anyone suggests as to my original question, not an alternate idea. Any ideas fellas/gals?

 

[mdainsd]

Good thread. Im in a similar position. I just got my studio up, live room, control room and started tracking drums. The technology is all up and running correctly (analog). Currently I am tracking 12 drum channels, as follows.

Two large diaphragm condenser mics overhead in the "recorderman" fashion.
Two pencil condenser mics overhead right and left.
The eight remaining mics cover each of the drums (Its a big kit)

Im recording to tape and playing back with no signal processing, at least until I am happy with the basic recording which I am not yet. I have the CAD mics on the individual drums. I like what the overheads are doing, nice crisp and clear, but not digging the toms, snare OR kicks.

I like the suggestion to take a drum at a time into the control room and do the experiments there, with the exception of the kicks. I have identical kicks with identical mics and stands and setup, yet they sound worlds different on playback.

Not here to hijack, just seems the O/P and myself are looking at similar issues. \m/

 

[MetroCenter]

I know experimentation is slow when working alone (I'm in the same boat). But there really is no substitute for trying, taking notes, and then narrowing down your options to the one that works for you.

If what you have doesn't work, then ultimately you're going to need another mic. I'd say save up for a used Sennheiser 421. I got mine used and it sounds great on toms.

 

[RecordingMaster]

I know experimentation is slow when working alone (I'm in the same boat). But there really is no substitute for trying, taking notes, and then narrowing down your options to the one that works for you.

If what you have doesn't work, then ultimately you're going to need another mic. I'd say save up for a used Sennheiser 421. I got mine used and it sounds great on toms.

Yeah...experimentation IS in order for me, but I was just hoping someone had SOME sort of suggestion other that getting new mics at $350+ per piece or using less mics. I already have a bunch of mics I use and am just being choosy I guess. Regardless of the quality of any of the mics, surely one has got to sound better than another on a certain source.

Will be experimenting soon and follow up.

 

[mdainsd]

LOL, Found one major problem. The tape return snake had two channels switched, so the a kick and snare were switched during playback. Fixed that, then readjusted eq which I had jacked way out trying to get things right. Now onto the toms, and they can easily be demounted and dragged into the control room for experiments. The other experiment I want to try is micing the bottom of the snare, The overheads are picking up the sanre fairly well but Im hunting for more crack to it.

 

[miroslav]

As for ABC'ing everything, I know that will yield the best results, but setting the correct pre-amp level, etc for each mic will vary so I can't just let it roll. I probably will end up having to do this though.

Since you are by yourself, and can't just have someone move/switch mics while someone else plays the kit and you listen...then yeah, it's time consuming, but you need to try out all the mics, and try various positions and preamp settings..etc.

Pick one setup...play/recrord.
Change the setup...play/record.
Repeat as many times as needed...play/record.

Then sit down and listen to all the different setups you recorded and pick what sounds best to you.

It might take an entire day for you to do this...but at that point you've learned a lot about your mics, positions and the room.
Oh...keep notes so you know what's what....

 

[RecordingMaster]

Since you are by yourself, and can't just have someone move/switch mics while someone else plays the kit and you listen...then yeah, it's time consuming, but you need to try out all the mics, and try various positions and preamp settings..etc.

Pick one setup...play/recrord.
Change the setup...play/record.
Repeat as many times as needed...play/record.

Then sit down and listen to all the different setups you recorded and pick what sounds best to you.

It might take an entire day for you to do this...but at that point you've learned a lot about your mics, positions and the room.
Oh...keep notes so you know what's what....

Oh bother! Why does everyone keep reinforcing this harsh reality?! haha. I'll have to get a friend to come over and bash the drums while I adjust/test different preamps and settings. Then get the fridn down there to put a new mic up and I can see the positioning, etc, and can tell him where/when to move it. put my live room camera directly over the drum set.

 

[miroslav]

I've done that tedious A/B/C/D crap for a lot of things...not just drums.

It can be fun too, trying out stuff...but it takes time, and all you want to do is just get on with it.
Honestly...in the end it IS worth it. You can learn a lot about your gear and techniques...and there's always a few surprising "ah ha!" moments.

Just find a day and do it. If you have some friends to help you, it goes faster, but you can do it by yourself too.

 

[RecordingMaster]

I've done that tedious A/B/C/D crap for a lot of things...not just drums.

It can be fun too, trying out stuff...but it takes time, and all you want to do is just get on with it.
Honestly...in the end it IS worth it. You can learn a lot about your gear and techniques...and there's always a few surprising "ah ha!" moments.

Just find a day and do it. If you have some friends to help you, it goes faster, but you can do it by yourself too.

Oh I'm constantly experimenting and trying new things in the studio, not just with drums, but everything else: the rooms I use to record different instruments in, changing baffle setups for live/not so live/dry sounds, mic placement, pre-amp settings and impedance settings, etc etc. Just not as extensively as spending an entire day. Before my next drum session (recording the rest of the drums to the other half of a new album), I'll have to hunker down and really dig in with all these mics, some which I've sort of always ignored/forgotten about. I was organizing my mic dresser (yup, not a closet or locker, haha) the other day and that's what made the wheels start turning about my original question. I know the "if it aint broke, don't fix it" rule, but in this this case it's more like "it aint perfect, so improve it".