Tone: Bolt-On vs. Set Neck

[muttley600]

Hey Muttley, have to disagree with you on that glue joint.

Your not disagreeing with me at all, your disagreeing with known and accepted principles of the laws of physics and mechanics. It is these that largely define how the things work and how we can design and engineer things to perform the tasks we need them to.

That would be like saying a metal bar welded in a lap joint on the outside is as strong and resonance worthy as a solid piece of steel. Never going to happen.

At no point has anyone said that this would be the case. We are talking about two different systems of attaching one material to another. Not the merits of one piece vs two pieces jointed together.

If a guitar neck is screwed to the body with a Press Fit, it would only need 2 screws to hold the resonance charachteristics. Solidity is only available, through a solid mass, such as string from nut to bridge. You have to consider that any glue, "hide is best" or any gap...will induce loss of tone and sustain. That is why all guitar manufacturers claim to have more tonality and sustain.

Wrong. And what does "Solidity is only available, through a solid mass, such as string from nut to bridge." mean?? "Hide is best" who says?? It is a very good choice for many instrument applications and is as popular today as it was 400 years ago.

I'm afraid I really don't understand what your driving at here. Sorry.

 

[muttley600]

We use hide glue on every joint in repair on vintage instruments, including neck joints - though we charge a lot more for it, `cause it is such a pain in the ass. For newer instruments, we do most of our repair work with LMI's Instrument Builder's Glue, which is essentially Tightbond without the yellow color added, which makes Tightbond softer than it would otherwise be. As far as building goes, I frequently use high end epoxies (West System or System Three) for the basic joints in my neck-through guitars, including laminating the neck (a five piece laminate), gluing the body wings to the neck, and glueing the top to the body. I want to be damn sure that the joints don't fail, and these are epoxies which dry as crystal, have extremly good strength in all directions, and are rated for temperatures where glue failure is the least of my worries - I'd be much more concerned about the wood bursting into flames. I do NOT, EVER use epoxy for anything which might need repair in the future, such as gluing on the fingerboard or peghead overlays. On dad's acoustics, he uses hide glue for all the top braces and the bridge. Almost everything else is the LMI stuff, including neck joints, back braces, gluing the box together, fingerboards, etc. We use cyanoacrylate for gluing on nuts, gluing down fret ends, purfling, and for sealing some kinds of wood (Cocobolo bleads like a stuck pig if you don't seal it, and cyanoacrylate seems to help). Cyanoacrylate also works well to fill some dips in a finish, if you fill them early enough in the process. Epoxy is also good for bigger finish dips - again, if you do it early in the process.

I think that about covers it.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

Yeh I use an Aliphatic without the useless yellow die. Hide glue gets used alot so does cascamite and urea-formaldahyde on joints I will never need to open. I have to admitt I never use epoxy even high heat cure varieties. I just don't trust the stuff. I have tried it for grain fill but dont like it for that either. It is good for filling really open grain on burrs and wild veneers. Over here the best seems to be "Devcon" it dries real clear and will take colouring well. I guess it comes down to what you get used to and you know will work for the job at hand.

Oh and I always have a selection of cyanoacrylate to hand differing gels and a bottle of kicker. Helps close those little cuts an nicks if nothing else

 

[TelePaul]

Jesus muttley why dya gotta be a goddamn tyrant eh?? Though I do think you and Light should have a guitar build-off. Like you each get a tree, an axe, a chisel, a shoe lace, some matches, some chewing gum and a cup of hot water and whoever makes the best guitar wins.

 

[muttley600]

Jesus muttley why dya gotta be a goddamn tyrant eh?? Though I do think you and Light should have a guitar build-off. Like you each get a tree, an axe, a chisel, a shoe lace, some matches, some chewing gum and a cup of hot water and whoever makes the best guitar wins.

If pointing out that people are misinformed is being a tyrant then yeh thats me. The guitar world is full of misconceptions and a major breeding ground for that these days is the internet. Do you want the information you get online to be accurate? If you want to argue my opinion thats fine by me but lets get the facts straight first. I've given my opinion on tone re- bolt on vs fixed and if people want to challenge that I'm fine with it. We have heard a lot of opinion on the subject and I can accept peoples opinion. What I can't accept is people saying black is white and pink is the new black!!

I'll say it again there is no good or bad, right or wrong, just different. The reasons for the difference are based on fact. Whether any of us can hear the difference is another debate.

I'm sure Light builds some impressive instruments and I would never judge mine against any other builders. Although I cant speak for the guy I'm sure he would be of much the same opinion on that one. There will be builders out there whos work we would both aspire too. Music and instrument making aint no competetive sport. Now where's my super polymer alloy??

 

[TelePaul]

I've given my opinion on tone re- bolt on vs fixed and if people want to challenge that I'm fine with it.

Well guitars do not exist! Argue that one, eh??

Even if they did, the polymer is not for sale!

Now shut up and build me a Lowden!!!!!

 

[muttley600]

Well guitars do not exist! Argue that one, eh??

Even if they did, the polymer is not for sale!

Now shut up and build me a Lowden!!!!!

Ok here it is.......... damn wheres it gone? It was here two posts ago

 

[TelePaul]

Ok here it is.......... damn wheres it gone? It was here two posts ago

maybe it ran away because you ruled it with an Iron Fist!!

But really, build me a lowden. A NICE one.

 

[muttley600]

maybe it ran away because you ruled it with an Iron Fist!!

But really, build me a lowden. A NICE one.

hhmmm let me think about that one. Nah

 

[TelePaul]

hhmmm let me think about that one. Nah

Well ehres a design in case you get bored. Note it ahs 8 frets for ease of playing. You may need Lights help though, but it'd be a cool collaboration.

 

[dkerwood]

This is one of the reasons Taylor switched to their shimmed and bolted neck system with their acoustics, claiming it can give you an easy fix for a setup in Hawaii or Alaska...no comment!!

I say again This does not make one type of joint better just different.

Thanks for mentioning the Taylor acoustics... that was a piece of evidence my luthier buddy gave supporting his opinion. Between Taylor and PRS guitars, he makes a good case.

But once again, logic wins out.

Just out of curiosity, between an Epiphone Les Paul and a Mexican Stratocaster, which would you expect to have a more efficient neck joint?

 

[muttley600]

Thanks for mentioning the Taylor acoustics... that was a piece of evidence my luthier buddy gave supporting his opinion. Between Taylor and PRS guitars, he makes a good case.

But once again, logic wins out.

Just out of curiosity, between an Epiphone Les Paul and a Mexican Stratocaster, which would you expect to have a more efficient neck joint?

I can't see how comparing Taylors and PRS is a good case. They are very different and excellent guitars. Acoustic vs electric is rarely a good comparison.

Both the guitars you mention have efficient neck joints in terms of doing what they are designed to do. If you mean efficient in terms of tone. As you can see there is quite a bit of opinion on that and I'm not sure you can define tone in terms of efficiency it is very subjective.

 

[dkerwood]

I can't see how comparing Taylors and PRS is a good case. They are very different and excellent guitars. Acoustic vs electric is rarely a good comparison.

Not comparing Taylor versus PRS. He used them both as examples of top line guitar manufacturers that have moved away from set neck guitars (or never worked with them in the first place).

 

[muttley600]

Not comparing Taylor versus PRS. He used them both as examples of top line guitar manufacturers that have moved away from set neck guitars (or never worked with them in the first place).

You have to keep in mind from a builders point of view bolt on necks are a heck of a lot easier to do. Everything from jigging to setup. They also suit a volume production system better than glued in neck joints. Post building repairs are also a lot easier.

 

[MCI2424]

Thats fine if it works for you but my 30 years of building, repairing and playing instruments tells me the opposite. How much it effects the finished sound is debatable..

Here is the funny thing. My best sounding strat is one I built from parts in 1984. My friend is a guitar builder and we had these discussions for absolutely years. I shimmed the neck using an ordinary matchbook cover. He went nuts telling me how it will shift etc ad nauseum.

Fast Forward:
2006. Strat is in perfect tune, plays even better than ever, No shift, nothing.

He told me a few days ago how it will shift and never stay in tune, the same old rant for what, 22 years?

That is why I sorta don't care anymore. Maybe when I am like 70-80 years old, it might shift. If he is right, I will have his words inscribed on my toombstone.

I am waiting...............

I understand the physics etc. but I really don't see it in practical life. There are good guitars, bad guitars and everything in between. I still have a Gibson Les Paul Standard from 1997 that goes to guitar repair guys when I am totally bored. No one can fix this total dog. Just a plain jane middle of the road guitar. Another standard I used to have (same period) was the best guitar I ever played bar none. It was stolen years ago or I would still have it.

 

[Zaphod B]

What fascinates me about the whole issue as I come to understand more about it from all these excellent posts is that the guitar, as a whole assembled item, serves an an attenuator for the strings' vibrations. Yes? Everything about the construction can have an effect, from neck joinery to the material of the nut, to the finish, to the size of the cavities, etc., etc., etc. As I understand it, it is the way that the guitar attenuates (would damping also be an accurate word for it?) that is the determinant of the frequency composition of the vibrating strings. Then the pickups come into the picture, and therein is more black magic....

.

 

[MCI2424]

What fascinates me about the whole issue as I come to understand more about it from all these excellent posts is that the guitar, as a whole assembled item, serves an an attenuator for the strings' vibrations. Yes? Everything about the construction can have an effect, from neck joinery to the material of the nut, to the finish, to the size of the cavities, etc., etc., etc. As I understand it, it is the way that the guitar attenuates (would damping also be an accurate word for it?) that is the determinant of the frequency composition of the vibrating strings. Then the pickups come into the picture, and therein is more black magic....

.

THAT is a great point. I have built around 5 strat copies back in the 80s and played with shifting the parts in combinations. 2 were fantastic and 3 just plain sucked. I sold the 3 and still have the 2 great ones.

Poplar body, maple neck combo just ruled with great sustain and great tone, attack. etc. I still use it for recording today.

I really is all about luck with the right combination of *particular* parts. I doubt you can recreate it with the same woods everytime which is why you can play 100 guitars all made the same and you have 100 different guitars.

 

[JasonBird]

i just built a LP styled , and the plans that i used were from a 59 . it has a pretty fat neck, but i used maple instead of mahoganny, and the fretboard is bubinga instead of rosewood, so i guess none of this is relevent...oh,yeah, i glued the neck on instead of bolton...has lot's of sustain . is there a way to measure sustain? Just babbling....back to making noise!
JasonBird

 

[cephus]

It looks like most people who like neck-throughs or set necks talk about sustain. Long notes. Solos.

Personally, i think a bolt-on neck is far superior for rhythm guitar and it seems to be for the reason that light stated regarding the quick loss of energy right after you pick. A set neck is kind of like a heavy ride cymbal that loads up to the point that you lose definition.

I do play lead on my bolt necks and have never really wanted to play something that required me to employ a set neck. I have never really gotten comfortable results playing a set neck (or attempting) on a gig because over 3/4 of the set is rhythm guitar and set necks just don't do it for me. Sustain is something that I have learned to compensate for or live without.