To Fat and Boomy and to Dense Mixes

B

BigBee

New member
Hi There,

My mixes sound very loud, fat (boomy)and dense and at some point become fatigueing (?). When I compare commercial recordings on my sound system (Hifi) they sound thinner but more quiet, there is more clarity between all different parts but still there is much energy en power. IS this an equalization issue of individual parts or of the whole mix or compression of individual parts or the whole mix.
I need your help
 
That's hard to say without knowing the song you're talking about, the style or the instruments used. I'll just throw an answer out to a common problem with like symptoms.

A big problem a lot of people have is individual tracks sounding great by themselves but when mixed tend to get muddy or way to boomy. The tracks when mixed have things happening in the same freq range. For example acoustic guitar recorded has a full range that will extend down to step on the feet of some bass lines. You have two bass producing instruments not exactly playing the same thing. Throw in there the kick drum and you have three instruments fighting to be heard.

Equalization is important during recording but ever more so during mixing. Make sure you don't have any stepping between instruments. Roll back the guitar bottoms thin it out a bit, maybe same thing with vocals. The bass line should be the most prominent thing when listening for the bass line. Narrow the punch of your kick to a precise sound you want vs whatever comes out when you record it. Give it it's own home in the bottom.

Think of it as sandbags in a wall. They each take up their own space with just a little contact to fill up the holes. when laid right end to end they make a flat even wall. If one is overlapping the rest and protruding up, it's the first thing you see when you look at that wall.

I'm not sure this is what you're looking for but it might be a start.
 
Just imagine you are listening to something on a huge bass knocking system. the vocals never really make the subs do much work either does the guitar or snare or keys(unless they are intended to be a low synthy sub bass patch) I just mixed a foo fighter-ish rock song for my band because we run into this problem when they are there for the mix. everyone wants to hear themselves full freq range cuz it sounds good right there in the room like that but not in the mix. they like the sound of guitar with a lot of bass on it but fail to realize what it does to the mix. they don't like the way their tracks sound solo'd at all but it has to be done. I roll off electric rhythm g-tar at like 100 boost around 3-4k and cut some really high highs like at 10-12k bass drum and bass guitar need space. you have to first listen because, as has happened to me, i just recorded them well by accident and needed no corrective eq. but usually you will. i cut 150 on bass drum a little and boost around there a little higher or lower on bass guitar i give the bass drum presence at around 1.5-2k--below the grind of the guitar. vocals i like to sound thin and compressed for our music so i roll off a bit of 200-250 keeping the fundamental intact then a little honk at 1.5-2 like the bass drum. they don't really conflict though. at mixdown i didn't use any compression at all and with this eq'ing and layering the levels just sit there!! then in mastering i do around a 1.1:1 ratio at like -15 fast attack and release and then do a little eq usually for us just a touch of mids and a small lowcut then a little air shelving at 18 very light and if it sounds muddy at all i cut a little bit between 350-450 try any or all of this but bear in mind it works for my music and not all the time this is just one song......
 
It's not just a EQ issue.

Are you panning the parts, are you seperating them on a up and bottom line in the stereo spectrum, are you openning the sound with some stereo reverb, are you moving the parts back and foward with reverb & Delay etc.......

There are at least 3 dimensions - high low, foward back,left right' that would help it to sound more open less dense abd not as fatigueing.

Good Luck
 
And of course does he know HOW to do any of that? Way too easy to say or quote than to truly understand. It's a complicated process but it is also music dependant. we'd probably have to be there to help cuz we'd need to hear the music in order to see if it needs what was just mentioned...reverb for depth and such. Keep posting we'll keep replying!! Panning wise rhythm in the center works for me-bass guitar and bassdrum and snare guitars almost hard left and right for rhythm
 
Silentsound
My intention was to open his options and to show that there are many factors to a clear mix.
Having seen only answers on EQ, I took the issue to another aspect of mixing that would at the very least show other areas to experiment with sound to try to achive his goal EVEN with out hearing the mix itself.

I accept your challenge :) and will try to be more explicit and not, how do you say "to easy to quote or understand".

BigBee,
Although Eq is a main factor in making a space for each instrument, stereo imaging has a 3 dimensional perspective that will help a mix sound balanced, open,interesting etc....

Those 3 are low-high, left-right, close-distant.

Left -right is perhaps the simplest of them. With panning you can achive a partial clearing of your mix as well as a good balance between the instruments.
When we move a instrument out of the way not only does he sound more clear but he makes the other parts sound clearer also.
Example- when you pan the keyboard left and the guitar rught you make room for the center parts as well.
I don't like to pan hard left and right as this can sound bad in a mono mix and can also cause a unnatural sound for a typical middle of the road mix. However people like to pan hard for the interesting stereo sound and a very clear mix in Stereo.
When you pan a single instrument to one side you have to be carefull that you don't upset the balance !. A distracting pan can make it sound lopsided.

Close -distant is a commen part of sound we hear.
Using reverb and delay can achive this for you. As you change the level of your part and your wet/dry "%" on your reverb and the predelay, you'll see how the distance changes
Example- play with the predelay and you'll see how the size of the room changes. Play with the levels and the reverb combination of dry/wet;and you'll see the sound
move closer or futher. I suggest you experiment with a big hall and that will make it more clear.

Up -Down can be achived by 2 methods
1. A very short delay to the same panning postion you placed the original part
2. EQ- Low eq's give a lower vertical sound and High's give a higher sound. That is way A Bass part can sound under a vocal although both are panned center.

Widening your stereo image- A stereo reverb can open space
and open a mix.As can a delay from the original part when it's sent to the other side of the panning spectrum.
even better if you Eq each part (original and delay) by boosting one and cutting the other at the same freq.

Combining 2 different revrebs can also add depth to a sound.
Example- try putting a part in a room reverb and then listing to it as you put that room reverb through a hall reverb.

I hope I have made myself clearer and although I can't hear your mix to give you specific advise you can try some of these ideas and maybe it can help you solve some of your problems.

Good Luck
 
Allright thanks You all. Now I'm getting the picture. This totally makes sense to me. I realize now why a record sounds like a record. So yes indeed every sound needs its space. But for every track you need separate EQ-Compression-FX (got only one of each)??? Or do you take care of some processing at the recording stage ? That's how I used to build a song by blending each instrument in the mix while in the recording stage. By the way right now I'm making Electronic Heavy Dance Music (based on guitar,bass and drummachine (loops) though) with a lot of samples going on. I used to do the rock trio thing but soundwise the quality is about the same.
 
Hello all!
Big Bee, man I would be happy if our mixes were sometimes more dense and gritty ;)

We produce music also with predominantly electronic gear for 20 years now. All the hints on this thread are surely wise and professional. But...the difficulties I always experienced are rather on the side of the 'raw material' like samples, loops, synth sounds etc. The commercial loops tend to be heavily processed, often already pre-mixed as if they were part of some finished song. (But which song? certainly not the one of the user). One-shot samples are often 2nd or later generation clones and have sometimes mutilated or artificially re-enhanced frequency ranges. Especially when mixing several loops and samples from different vendors plus adding your own synth sounds in one tune, chances are high that the final 'frequency soup' sounds like 2 DJs spinning 4 tunes at the same time.

Think of a 3-star chef in a 3-star restaurant will never be able to cook a 3-star meal from tough meat and wilted veggies.
A good mix begins with good basic sounds. The main problem electronic musicians have to face, as opposed to miking musicians, reside in the broad (inaudible) frequency range synths can generate, plus each synth and sampler generates his very own. A good example is the nasty bass clash between a TR808 kick and a raw K2000 sine or square wave. On the other hand, if the lows are rolled off on the EQ, it'll make the club crowd escape the dancefloor...

Best bet is getting rid of mud and other artifacts directly on the synth or the sampler before the sound enters the mixer stage. Important here is proper monitoring with systems that go down low. Using NS10s or similar only without any sub can be a crucial factor.
The only way is often to get rid of a certain sound in a first place. Critical listening is essential in the loop and sample jungle. From my experience, barely 10% of the samples offered on the market are professionally usable. For me it's much faster and more original to create my own beats and sounds from scratch. Something I can be sure it'll fit in the mix.

Most mixer EQs are designed to efficiently process 'natural' instruments. However on electronic gear they are mostly just good enough to fine tune little flaws. "Fix it in the mix" might still have its place in a conventional band setup, but a keyboarder deals with virtually millions of sounds, so he needs to be mix oriented up front. A sound that won't sit in the mix whatever you do, should be replaced, even if it hurts. Our rule is "make the right choice BEFORE you record". I also avoid any sort of built-in gimmicks like chorus, bass maximisers or enhancers. Although the price/quality ratio of electro gear has been constantly improving, I will always first grab the 'real' 909 and shape it for my tune before I use some Rebirth mod. If I have the choice ;)
 
DUDE! Garger
Where the hell did you come across that table! I have been working on a table like that for the last 3 months and it wasn't half as good as that! Holy crap what a time saver!

Two thumbs up dude! :eek:
That kicks too much ass!!!!
 
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