Timing Issues

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jonhall5446

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Yo everybody!

I am not a drummer myself, but my drummer is. hehe.

Anyway...

The drummer in my band has some timing issues. Mainly in turns and big fills. He is a very busy player and I think when he gets too fancy he throws it off a little. We slow down on slow stuff and speed up on fast stuff. He is not lazy and certainly not the worst I've played with, but he could use some work. As the rythm guitar player and singer I find that when I pound the chords out I can keep everyone on track, but that completely robs my playing of any style I might have and it's definately not my job to keep the beat. So here's my question...

What are some good ways for him / us to work out these timing issues. I've heard that drum buddies are good to practice with. How much do those things cost? He doesn't have a huge ego and wouldn't mind much criticism. Overall I like the way he plays and I wouldn't want him to change his style, just clean it up a bit. Any suggestions.
 
Get him a metromone to play with. Have him play a beat then solo and get it so he's always on time with it! Make sure him and the bass lock with each other like 2 coats of paint! Playing busy can be cool but ya'll know less is more(ex. Steve Gadd)! If he can play simple stuff on time but wants to do busy stuff but not as in the pocket.....

Hope this gives you some ideas.
 
How long has he been playing? If he's not that experienced, it might just mean more hours practicing. Drumming is the most demanding job in a band!! They can't screw up or the whole band sounds like sh... I used to play with albums, it's instant feedback if you screw up. If he messes up on fills, maybe he's trying to do to much out of his skill level...practice....practice...blah..blah...

Doug
 
Well I have to say that his inconsistency lies in his kick drum. It's all over the place, there is nothing there to follow. He is an artist at the snare and the high-hat. He changes the kick drum every measure. Maybe we'll start there. I'll look at getting him a click to play with. His timing issues fall in the groove and control category. I am trying to teach him to hear the music beyond the beat. He is learning how to play guitar, maybe that will help. It's not that he can't play in the pocket, I just don't think he knows how deep it is.

thanks

I'll post a link and you can tell me what you think. Things are a little more consistent in the studio but you'll get the point.

and yes I agree Doug, PRACTICE
 
"Doing too much is like talking too much, it makes you look bad". I've helped many drummers keep thier jobs with that piece of advice.


Simply put, if your drummer wants to keep his job, he's going to have to play with a metronome. There's no two ways about it. Him and your bass player have to jam seperately; they go hand in hand.

I heard your song "two 45" and this is my advice.

Slowing down during drum fills is a sign of improper technique, so it could help him out to start from the basics again. Have him play the songs without fills or any fancy work; just have him focus on timing. You'll notice a huge difference.

If you have to clap it out loud for him, that helps too. It might look stupid, but it'll bring your songs up another notch. Trust me.

Drummers like Neil Pert and Mike Portnoy are brilliant because they know thier place in a song. Knowing when to shine and when to hold back is the best thing any musician can do.
 
I’ll I have to go by are the three recordings of the group so I don’t know how this will apply in the real world. Since I don’t know if a click track was used etc.

You should look into every band member using a metronome every time they pick up the instrument. The drummer is not the only problem from what I can pick up.

The guitar on track 1 and 3 and are not in time.
The drums on track 1 are in time
The drums on track 2 rush when He goes from high hat to ride cymbal.
The drums on track 3 are hard to make out because the guitar is so far off.
For the most part the drum fills are in time but a little sloppy here and there.

I think He’s pretty solid but could use a metronome to woodshed with on a daily bases.
Most guitar players think they play in time…..not true.

Sorry if this offends you but if you recorded in my studio these are the things I would have pointed out without hesitation.

Nice material by the way, I do like the over-all work.
keep it up man!

C
 
Here's my take. I've been playing for about 23 years but you can take it for what it's worth. There's a lot more to what you're saying that needs attention. You have to look at the over all picture here. Is this a band that just messes around, or are you trying to form a band with every rocker's dream of making a name for your selves?
If it's the latter, you have to tackle this in a big way. Especially since you're talking about the bass drum. After all, the bass drum is essentially the one that keeps time and created a groove. It's what the people that are watching your band are wanting to hear. If the beat isn't there, then all the music on top of it means nothing. A bass drum that's off time is as obvious and obnoxious as a guitarist, bassist or singer going way off key. I often think that a drummer can make or break a band.
First and foremost, you have to approach this with the intention of furthering whatever your cause is. You have to be certain that the drummer is understanding and hearing your critisizms. If you just say "it sounds kind of sloppy", you're really not saying much. We used to break things down into sections and play them repetetivley. Afterwards. each member of the band would talk about what was wrong, and what was right about each part until we all felt good about it. This way, it's a band thing as apposed to a drummer issue. I feel this is need for any serious band. Also, as irritating as it can be sometimes, listen very closely to what waht your significant other has to say. And any groupies you may have. Don't undersetimate their judgments. You can actually learn a lot by what "laimen enthusiasts" have to say.
To sum it up, work the issues until they're right.... and do not compromise if you're serious about getting anywhere.
Good luck!
 
Discipline and a metronome...
A metronome and discipline

Lock himself in a room with his drums and those two items every chance he gets. Start the metronome at about 105 and practice the fills he's having troubles with.... Start about 8 beats prior to the fill and continue playing 8 beats after.... repeat... repeat... repeat... repeat until the little click is as a much a part of his sound as his hihat and snare...
Kick the metronome up to 110... Repeat... repeat... repeat...
115....

It's not going to happen overnight, but you'll notice an improvement rather quickly.

Just my .02
 
I was gonna say make recordings and be strict about the results. If it's not happening talk about exactly what's wrong and it better not be your part. Don't expect from others what you can't expect of yourself. Set an example as a professional, a leader, and a friend.
 
I sounds to me like the guitar is trying to lead the drums. That will pull the band away from where it should be. Everyone needs to woodshed with a metronome.

The drummer does speed up and slow down, but the guitar is pulling him in that direction. The bass player is simply confused.

This isn't fatal and really won't take that much work to fix. The drummer isn't the only problem, the whole band needs to work on timing.

If you work out those issues, the material is pretty strong.
 
Agree

I like this response. Simplify the song by not adding any flavor, (fills), and get it down pat. Then slowly add them back. It seems he's knocking himself off beat with the fills. Also, leaving space for other instruments is very important. Improvisation is great but everyone can't do a fill at the same time or it just sounds cluttered. Try to have an idea of who will do a fill and where so others can leave room. I like the song ideas though, good job.


LRosario said:
"Doing too much is like talking too much, it makes you look bad". I've helped many drummers keep thier jobs with that piece of advice.


Simply put, if your drummer wants to keep his job, he's going to have to play with a metronome. There's no two ways about it. Him and your bass player have to jam seperately; they go hand in hand.

I heard your song "two 45" and this is my advice.

Slowing down during drum fills is a sign of improper technique, so it could help him out to start from the basics again. Have him play the songs without fills or any fancy work; just have him focus on timing. You'll notice a huge difference.

If you have to clap it out loud for him, that helps too. It might look stupid, but it'll bring your songs up another notch. Trust me.

Drummers like Neil Pert and Mike Portnoy are brilliant because they know thier place in a song. Knowing when to shine and when to hold back is the best thing any musician can do.
Click to expand...
 
Farview said:
I sounds to me like the guitar is trying to lead the drums. That will pull the band away from where it should be. Everyone needs to woodshed with a metronome.

The drummer does speed up and slow down, but the guitar is pulling him in that direction. The bass player is simply confused.

This isn't fatal and really won't take that much work to fix. The drummer isn't the only problem, the whole band needs to work on timing.

If you work out those issues, the material is pretty strong.
Click to expand...

I just finished listening to the 3 songs and I agree here. The drummer is a little sloppy, but it doesn't seem to be totally his fault. It's hard to tell from just the recordings, but I really do get the sense that this is more of an issue with the entire band than it is with just the drummer. I think everyone in the band should do some woodshedding with a metronome and then just concentrate on really getting into the groove and the "pocket" when you guys practice together. You may just need more practice as a whole band. I don't know how long you guys have been together, but when a group of musicians have been playing together for say, over a year, something really cool happens. The musicians really understand each other and it becomes a lot more easy to just fall into a tight groove. So if you guys are a fairly new group, then I can understand your troubles.

Some tips to help you out: The guitar should not lead the band, period. Let the drummer know that he needs to be the the timekeeper and that everyone should lock in with him, not the other way around. Get your drummer to simplify his bass beats and really concentrate on them. You can even mic his bass drum and run the signal through a spare bass amp to make shure that everyone can hear it clearly. Then, forget about the songs for a few practices and just practice getting into the groove. Make shure everyone in the band knows the goals of these sessions and just practice, practice, practice. I'm shure you guys will get a lot tighter.

Really though, aside froom the rhythm problems, you guys sound great. Good songs, and decent recordings too. I especially liked some of the electric guitar sounds. Nice. Keep it up. I'm sure that you'll eventually get the kinks worked out.
 
Hey John, I just listened to all three of the songs and the whole band needs to tighten up a bit. BTW, great songs and everyone has potential as players and as a band.
Your drummer needs to play less! He is averaging a drum fill every other measure. That is like playing a guitar solo through out the song. He needs to play less fills. He needs to realize that most of the time, less is more. If he plays fewer fills (in his case, half as many) than the fills he does play will stand out and make the song sound better. And he will become a better and more reliable, versatile drummer. Drums are a rhythm instrument, not a lead instrument. He needs to save the fills for the right time...in other words, he needs to play for the song, no more and no less. Sometimes, a simple cymble crash or snare drum "flam" is all you need. Believe me, there is a time for killer drum fills, but not all of the time. Also, keeping time with the left foot on the hi-hat durring fills and while playing on the ride cymble also helps with keeping good time. He needs to leave room for the other players in the band. If he has a double bass pedal, TAKE IT AWAY! I know some awesome drummers that only play fills when the time is appropriate and the whole band sounds 100% better because of it. If he gets "bored" playing less then tell him that he can be a professional, or not be one. Save the flashiness for the drum solo. If there is no drum solo in the set, make him happy and give him a 2 minute solo.
All in all, he's pretty good. He just needs to play less and work on his timing. And the rest of the band needs to tighten up too.
 
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