Timing and track workflow

[JOHN D]

When I rehearsed with a band many years ago. We would all record together when making demo's (drummer, bass and rhythm guitar) and timing was free and in sync.
Now I am recording in my sequencer with programmed drums playing bass and guitars myself. I usually start after deciding tempo and time signature beat to play the rhythm part, add drums, bass and then melody and vocals.
If I try to play along with the metronome I often end up when I check the time grid that I have slipped out unless its a very simple part.
Sometimes I switch off the metronome and get a more free sound and is easier.
I just wondered if should go back to basics and rehearse timing or continue without the metronome.
I know I'm an old rusty nut so wondered what the forum thinks on this.
I suppose the ideal is band recording session where you can work together.

John.

 

[suprstar]

Some ppl like playing to a metronome, some ppl like to just go with what feels good at the time. I can go either way, but I prefer playing to a click - it's a lot easier to copy/paste if everything lines up at the beat / bar / measure marks. OTOH it's a PITA when you have time changes... A horse apiece.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Are you doing drums with a looping program? Build the drums as soon as the structure of the song is done, before recording guitars etc. Then record the bass. Now you've got a solid rhythm track to play guitar to.

 

[miroslav]

When I rehearsed with a band many years ago. We would all record together when making demo's (drummer, bass and rhythm guitar) and timing was free and in sync.

I'm sure it just sounded like that to you...…but I bet if you could have put up those tracks in a DAW and looked at them...you would see a lot of beats ahead/behind the actual tempo had you used a click/metronome.

I wouldn't sweat that too much...just use the click/metronome as your overall guide, but don't be focused on trying to nail every beat so that it's always in perfect sync with the click/metronome. Even if you tried to...you would never hit them all, no matter how perfect you played.
That's only normal.

It's when the playing starts to drift way off the tempo that it can sound bad…and that’s really what the click/metronome is for…to hold the overall tempo steady.

 

[grimtraveller]

I'm sure it just sounded like that to you...…but I bet if you could have put up those tracks in a DAW and looked at them...you would see a lot of beats ahead/behind the actual tempo had you used a click/metronome.

I think the key here was when John D said 'timing was free and in sync'. There may well have been a little drifting here and there, but the band would have done it all together so it wouldn't really be noticed. Unless the band was hopeless.

 

[themdla]

or

if you're using pro tools or aren't hardware monitoring then it might be latency coupled with/without automatic input recording offset/compenmsation.

i had this issue alot when i was first recording and maybe most don't notice it (i have super accute ears).

i would get a great take and then when i would listen back to it sounded slightly "off" and additionally if i zoomed in i could see that my performance was off the grid.

then an engineer friend of mine mentioned that i shouldn't be using the built-in click in protools because it has a bunch of latency in relation to the actual grid.

at first i thought he was full of it but...

after i checked into i found out that the click plug-in in protools was 10ms off of the grid + input latency (mine was about 4ms) left my tracks 14ms latent or off of the grid. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

so then i started using a sample for a click as he had instructed and built my own click directly on the grid, my recordings instantly sounded tighter.

then i started to notice that after piling up tracks i started having a similar issue, but not as pronounced.

this was the 4ms of input latency piling up after tracking to a track that was already 4ms off of the grid to begin with.

anyway i started hardware monitoring and adjusting my input recording offset and now that issue has been resolved and my tracks have never sounded tighter!!!

 

[Paulie Jay]

Metronomes are very sneaky. They speed up and slow down and make us sound like we can't keep time

A little bit of drift is fine if everything is drifting in the same direction. Don't sweat it too much, unless the timing is so off that it actually sounds bad.

To answer your question, yes, continue to practise with a metronome. There is nothing wrong with tightening up your timing.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

I just wondered if should go back to basics and rehearse timing or continue without the metronome.

Don't ask why, ask why not. What reason is there to NOT learn how to play in time? If you learn that, it's not like you'll loose the ability to play free form or will sound robotic when you do. You'll simply be adding another skill to your skill set; one which is bound to come in more handy the more you do studio work and the more you begin to expand and work with different people.

G.

 

[JOHN D]

Some interesting comments. We did make demo,s and had interest from a large record company . That was a long time ago before a period when I stopped playing guitar for a few years (married with kids).
Now I,m trying to pick up again and using Sonar 8.5 (through upgrade path) which I think is a great program. Now I am just making music as a hobby. I think with the ability to see music in waveforms against a grid background is a modern distraction. I do use direct monitoring and latency is no problem.
I think the answer would be simply to plan compositions on notes before sitting down and recording then turn up the the click volume until the basic structure is laid down.
Beethoven are you reading this?

 

[miroslav]

I think with the ability to see music in waveforms against a grid background is a modern distraction.

That's what I was getting at in my last post.
You can play with a bunch of guys and have it be as tight as a gnat's ass...and then you LOOK at the tracks in the DAW...and you WILL see that compared to a click/metronome track, beat to beat, you guys will all be a little ahead/behind, sometimes dead on, but never the same, or dead on, on every beat, throughout the song.

Don't let that bother you.

If you play/record with a click/metronome...after awhile it just becomes natural, and it drifts off into to the background...you hear it but you aren't stuck focusing on it....which can be a distraction to some folks initially, simply because they are not use to it.