TimeAlign/phase question for anyone...

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tubedude

tubedude

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Ok, in ProTools and alot of other programs you can time-align tracks... for instance, move your overhead tracks a few samples in either direction to get them in phase with rest of the kit. Heres my question... is there any way to tell if they are in phase or not? Will it just be lining up the transients and waveforms or is there more to it that you can do? Steinberg has a phasescope, and I assume it checks phase, but I've never looked into it, so I'm not sure thats what it does. I think I'll go check that out now. When things are slightly out of phase, especially drum tracks, its hard to tell where its (the phasiness)coming from.
Anyone?
Paul
 
my ignorance on parade

I don't know a lot, but I do know this much. If you have two copies of the same signal on two tracks, and you line them up so all the bumps are in the same place, and all the valleys are in the same place, they are in phase.

With two different mics recording the same source, the same would be true, line up the hills and valleys. A hill on track one should line up with a hill on track two.

But if you have two different sources, say a trumpet on one and a drum on two, I don't know that there's any such thing as "in phase" or "out of phase".

So, if you're recording a snare on track one and a kick on track two at the same time and there's bleed between the mics, you should line em up in phase.

If you have them completely isolated, I don't think it really matters.

Thanks to inflation, my two cents have become more like 20 cents. Wow. :D
 
I asked that same question a while ago and this is what Harvey wrote back....

Originally posted by Tekker
"That doesn't always work, since you might have multiple phase cancellations."
Harvey, can you illiterate on that? Are you reffering to using multiple mics or just two? Because I always thought that lining them up in the DAW got rid of most of the phasing problems.
Click to expand...

Originally posted by Harvey Gerst
Just two mics. While it's true you'll eliminate one major phasing problem, the sound of a guitar doesn't come from just one spot and both mics will pick that up, making perfect phase cancellation impossible. That's why I liked your second suggestion so much - it finds the best spot to avoid almost all the phase problems you're likely to run across as you place the mics.
Click to expand...

(And for those who didn't see that thread, my second suggestion that Harvey was referring to was to flip the phase on one mic and then position them so that you get the quietest sound possible then flip the phase back and that way you eliminate the phasing problems at the beginning instead of fixing them in the DAW)

I don't really know how much difference it would make (probably not enough to really hear the difference) but I would think that if you lined them up in the DAW editor that they would be very closely in phase. If someone would like to try this (I don't have anyway to flip the phase on a mic during tracking, and I don't want to shred up one of my cables to switch the wires) I would be interested in hearing the actual difference in sound between just aligning them in a DAW and using the phase reversal mic placing technique mentioned above.

-tkr
 
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I think getting the snare and kick mic as close to the overheads as possible is the important thing. If you have all the toms miced, and maybe a mic or 2 more for individual cymbals, hats or ride, you're gonna play hell trying to get EVERYTHING in phase. I know that lining up the transients gets it pretty close, but theres some weird stuff that goes on with sound, and getting the transients on the overheads and snare the same is no guarantee that the kick will be in now. What a pain in the ass.
The other alternative is to gate the hell out of everything, or better yet, use a programs "clean up" function to erase everything under a certain db range. You dont risk clipping transients that way, and you effectivly elimiate other drums from each mic.
 
careful with that noise gate

Referring to Tubedude's last suggestion, be very careful with those software noise gates (or clean up or whatever they call it). They are very harsh, all or nothing and wipe out everything below the threshold. This can result in the tail end of a sound being clipped off suddenly. Ick. Keep your finger on the undo button.

And yes, the first choice would be to fix phase problems with proper mic placement to the extent possible, and that flip the phase trick is a good one.
 
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On most sources, just because I'm a tweaker, I'll set up envelopes and gate things myself and ramp fade outs on the sustain of notes so they dont get clipped all ugly. On some stuff, though, if you set it up properly, gates work like a charm.
I reiterate... phase is a bitch.
 
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