Time to burn the final mastering cd ?

Paranfer

New member
Hi, how you doing.I was wondering if i should normalize my songs before burning them to a cd.I used Nero software for burning cd, there's an options that allowed me to increase ( normalize ) from 80 to 100.I know that the standard is 90, but when i burn them 90, the songs are not enough loud compare to originals cds ( i got ot pump up the volume by 6-9db ). Is there another way to burn my songs so that the level of each song is approximitly the same. ( the problem is that i've got to change the level every time i skip a song ).I'm using Cubase SX2 for mixing and mastering, maybe there's something in Cubase that allows me to do that.
My question is: how do i get a standard volume for each songs when it's time to burn them to a cd.Maybe a plug-ins could do the job, a burning software made for this, any tips how to improve this problem.Thanks.
 
DON'T normalize if it's going to be mastered. if you HAVE to, you can import the wav file back into your program and use some compression to get it up to snuff, or normalize it there. mastering is what makes it up to level of 'commercial cds' there's an ongoing loudness war you see, and it makes everything yucky squishy.

what're you doing for "mastering?"
 
The songs should be left unaltered before mastering; that includes any normalizing, dynamic effects, EQ or any effects for that matter.
 
LRosario said:
The songs should be left unaltered before mastering; that includes any normalizing, dynamic effects, EQ or any effects for that matter.
Too right, leave it all to the mastering engineers as they will be better at it.
 
corban said:
"Any" effects? Are we including things like reverb on the vocal in this blanket statement?

No, mastering will typically be performed on a stereo mixdown, so any effects that belong to individual tracks should already be there. Sometimes a little reverb on the entire track adds a nice ambience, though.
 
Which tree?

I'm not even sure we're answering Paranfer's question. After re-reading his original post a few times, I don't see any reference anywhere to prepping his recording for a mastering house. The only time he used the word "mastering" was in the phrase "mastering cd" in the thread title. I think he is just burning his "final" CD and is disappointed that it doesn't sound as loud as commercial releases.

Paranfer, if my above analysis is correct, what you need to look at in "mastering" your own CD (I'll define that here in this context as the things you do to "finish" the recording after you have mixed down to stereo and before you push the "Burn" button) is some kind of dynamic compression via either manual peak editing or via a compressor.

The idea is to decrease the volume difference between the loudest peaks in your stereo mixdown and the "average volume" or RMS volume of your recording. By reducing the size of the peaks, you are giving yourself more "headroom" to be able to bring up the overall volume of the mix before/without hitting zero on the digital meters.

There is a whole lot of talk about the use of compressors and limiters - both plug-ins and outboard - for this task, and they indeed work great when used properly. There are times, though - for example if the type of compressor you have just does not have the right "sound" for the type of music, or if you just can't afford the "good stuff right now", or if you're just learning how to use compression but you're on a deadline to press the CD and don't have the time to experiment - when you can get a good overall volume increase in your master through "manual compression".

The idea there is to just use your favorite waveform editor to zoom in on the largest, most obvious transient peaks in your stereo mix. Depending on the recordings and the type of music, there may be only a handful that rise blatently above most of the rest of the recording. Zoom in on those blatent peaks, highlight them with the ends of the highlighted areas corresponding to the basees of the peak, and drop the volume by a however many dB necessary to make them more in line with the average peaks in the rest of the song.

Once you have "ironed out" only the worst offenders, then measure the volume of the highest peak in the song (most editors will calculate this for you somewhere.) Then increase the overall volume - not with normalization, but with simple volume - of the song by just under that amount. For example, if your highest peak come in at -5.2dB, you might want to boost your volume at that point by 5.0dB or so. This will give you a 5.0dB boost in the overall volume of your mix without clipping and without the need for tools which might not be at your disposal.

Using this method I have found that I can often get as much as 3-6 extra decibles of headroom to play with without artifacting the sound by running it through extra plugins.

Of course if you have a good limiter or compressor that you know how to use properly, or if you song has such extreme dynamic range that you have hundreds of wild peaks that need to be tamed, then you're better off using those tools instead of doing it manually. Plus sometimes a compressor may add a particular sound (many times people call it "warmth") that you just don't get otherwise, in which case just running it through the extra circuitry enhances the result.

But I just wanted to illustrate the options; there is always more than one way to skin a cat, and not all of them necessarily mean using more gear. ;)

G.
 
Thanks scrubs. I was being a little facetious because I felt it was a statement that could be too easily misinterpreted to mean that the ME is going to put all your individual effects, which is obviously silly. :D
 
Time to burn to cd !

Thanks a lot SouthsideGlen, i really appreciate the explanation even if
my question about ! mastering ! wasn't very cleared, but now i'm pretty
sure i understood the answer you just posted before.
But matter of fact, I'm doing Blues and Rap Music.
When it's time to mix down to 2 tracks, the reverb on the vocals, the effects
on the instrumentals parts are there, any effects i would like to be in the song is in the mix.Then, open a new session with 2 tracks pan right and left,
use a little bit of EQ, compression ( ratio : 2:1 ) ( smooth attacks ) ( some peak reduce sometimes by 3 db max ) and sometimes a little bit of reverb.
But still havin to pump up the volume by at least 3-6 db to have a mix that sound like an original cd, even if in Cubase i'm at 0 db.
 
Paranfer said:
But still havin to pump up the volume by at least 3-6 db to have a mix that sound like an original cd, even if in Cubase i'm at 0 db.
That's not at all unusual, Par. I'd have to see one of your WAVs to know exactly what's going on, but my bet is that while your peak level is at 0dB, your *RMS level* - i.e. the average volume of the overall mix - is probably actually somewhere much lower, possibly even as low as -15 to -20dB.

Even with some compression this is not unusual. In fact, compression alone, *if no gain is added after the compression* can even lower the RMS volume in some instances. Think of it in terms of what is physically happening. Compression is "squishing" the signal like stepping on a bug. It's squishing it to lower volumes. This in and of itself does not make things louder, it only gives you the headroom to *then* make things louder, which is the 2nd part of the process you have to set and perform. You can make it louder one of two ways, by boosting the Output Gain level on the compressor or by boosting the volume of the whole mix after you've run it through the compressor. Either way will work, just choose which one sounds better in your situation.

G.
 
That's right, i understand, here what i do with compression, i pump up the gain like
i compressed it, if im compress by 3 db, im gonna pump up the output gain by 3 db,
to be sure i'm not ! Clipping !Should i put more gain than i compress, is that you mean.
And about the RMS average level, i know 70 watts RMS is approximitly 100 watts !
In Nero burning software, there's an option about normalizing, it goes from 15-50 rms i think, the default is 20 RMS, what should i do, maybe i don't understand, but i also think this is not the case.
 
Paranfer said:
i compressed it, if im compress by 3 db, im gonna pump up the output gain by 3 db,
to be sure i'm not ! Clipping !Should i put more gain than i compress, is that you mean.
Yeah, after compressing, your *peak level* will go down. If that goes down by 3dB, then you'll want to boost the output volume by at least that much...possibly more if the peak was below zero to begin with. But you're right, the key is to push the volume up yet keep the peaks below zero and not clipped.
Paranfer said:
And about the RMS average level, i know 70 watts RMS is approximitly 100 watts !
In Nero burning software, there's an option about normalizing, it goes from 15-50 rms i think, the default is 20 RMS, what should i do, maybe i don't understand, but i also think this is not the case.
Amplifier wattage and decibel level are not the same thing, or at least there is no simple direct correlation between the numbers used. Here's the deal:

I'm not sure where it's located in Cubase SX2 (I haven't used Cubase since VST24), but somewhere in tere there should be a tool that measures the peak and RMS levels in decibels of your mixed down stereo file. For example, in Sound Forge (where I do most of my mastering work) I can find it in the Normalize control and Audition I can find it in the "Analyze" menu.

The "RMS Level" number will tell you the average volume of your stereo mix. This number will always be lower than zero, it's supposed to be. For example, I just finished a mix of a song last night that has several peaks between -0.5dB and 0dB, but the RMS level of the song after all was said and done was -16dB. I probably could have pushed it a little harder and gotten it to, say, -12 or -13dB, but I didn't like the sound as much when it was that squashed; too many of the nuanced sounds in it were no longer nuanced, they were clobbering me over the head instead ;).

The key (to my taste and method anyway, others may disagree,) is to compress until the *mix* sounds best and then bring up the output/volume to max the peaks out a just below clipping. Your RMS level will be what it will be.

But I would NOT recommend using Nero's (or anybody else's) RMS normalization to set the RMS level to some "magic number". This can squash your mix beyond pleasurability, if not beyond recognition. As an example, if I tried normalizing the RMS of my song last night to, say, -12dB just to make it louder, it would have clipped or limited at least the top 4dB right off the top of most of my peaks and would have sounded like crap.

Compress till the *mix* itself sounds right, ignoring the low volume temporarily. Then when that sound good, bring up the output or the mix volume to peak below clipping. That's my recipe. Others may do it different, and that's cool; in which case I'm sure they'll post here :).

G.
 
I throw a limiter on after the compression. That way I can set it exactly so I know for sure I'm not going to clip, no matter how much I push the level. I set my compression settings so they sound good to me, and then push the make-up gain as high as I can without triggering the limiter very often. My mixes aren't as loud as the radio, but I don't care, I don't want to squish the shit out of them either.
 
Paranfer said:
When it's time to mix down to 2 tracks, the reverb on the vocals, the effects
on the instrumentals parts are there, any effects i would like to be in the song is in the mix.Then, open a new session with 2 tracks pan right and left,
use a little bit of EQ, compression ( ratio : 2:1 ) ( smooth attacks ) ( some peak reduce sometimes by 3 db max ) and sometimes a little bit of reverb.
But still havin to pump up the volume by at least 3-6 db to have a mix that sound like an original cd, even if in Cubase i'm at 0 db.
Here's just another option.

When you mix down to a stereo track you should leave about 6db of headroom for the mastering. To do that put your main out faders on 0db and don't allow the meter to exceed -6. You shouldn't use compression during the mixdown. If you have a track that's out of hand then compress that track individually before mixing.

After you mix then open a new session with just the stereo track and equalize it where needed. Compress it to lower the peaks before you increase the volume. Keep in mind that the more you compress it, the less dynamics you will have. Try it a few different ways and use you eyes and ears. After you lower the peaks then you can maximize the gain.

Whatever way you choose to master your tracks, if you're consistent then your volume levels will remain approximately the same from song to song.
 
Commercial CD (average) RMS average value is around -10dB.
Some mixes might not be able to reach this value without sound degridation. Just listen very carefully when boosting your level at mastering to ensure your mix isnt loosing quality from exessive limiting.
 
Thanks a lot guys,SouthSide Glen,Corban,NYMorningstar,ecktronic, i'll try a little bit of this and a little bit of that and with the information you gave me,
i think NOW, it's gonna be alright.Anyway, like corban said * I don't want to squish the shit out of them either * just to sound like * commercial cd *, so thanks a lot again guys, really appreciate.
 
Use a dither on the master out and when bouncing, boune to two seperate mono tracks rather than a stereo interleaved track. Then apply dither again to the two seperate mono tracks.
Keeping the song as two mon tracks rather than a stereo interleaved track will keep better quality (remebering to dither at 24bit preferably; if recorded at 24 bit). At mastering still keep the song as two mono tracks until it is ready to go on CD then bounce as a stereo interleaved (24bit) track and dither at 24bit. Then convert to 16bit and dither at 16bit.
Best quality. It might not be noticeable to the untrained ear, but you might notice on fades that the fades are smoother, less loss of bits at the end of the fade.
 
Great idea my friend,never though doing it that way,but yes,when it's time to
mixdown to a stereo track, it's been recorded in 24 bits 48khz and mixdown in
a stereo intervealed 24bits 48khz.But like you said i'll try the exportation
like this: mixdown on 2 mono tracks 24 bits 48khz,after that,open a new session for the * mastering * and make another mixdown ( mono ) at 24 bits 48 khz ( 2 mono tracks again ) and after all that convert to a stereo intervealed track at 16 bits 44.1 khz, i'll try it that way and logically, it should
help, but i never try it, so here's the first step, but thanks a lot ecktronic,i really appreciate.
 
Yeah glad to help. As i say though it might not even be noticeable to the ears. Try listening at the tale end of a fade out and comparing. Wonder if mastering engineers ever ask for the tracks to be in multiple mono rather than stereo interleaved to keep quality as high as possible. :confused:
 
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