Tight and rehearsed vs looser with spontaneity

[grimtraveller]

When tracking, do you prefer to have every element rigorously rehearsed so that you know exactly what every move will be or are you open to the possibility of spontaneity or a little improvisation ?
For me, it really depends on the song because I've had good results both ways and I've also had awful results both ways, which became good results when attempting the other way.

 

[pikingrin]

I typically start with one rough idea and go from there - more loose and spontaneous than anything else. I do everything myself though; if I had a band I'm sure it would be different.

 

[JDOD]

I generally start loose and try to keep it that way. Sometime things sounds a bit too loose so it's just a mess so I tighen a few things up.

I give myself this rule: "Don't play until you hate the song"

 

[BroKen_H]

I generally start loose and try to keep it that way. Sometime things sounds a bit too loose so it's just a mess so I tighen a few things up.

I give myself this rule: "Don't play until you hate the song"

That's funny. When I played in a band for a living, our #1 rule was, If we haven't hated the song, it's not ready for the public...Always had to go through that "Do we HAVE to practice that again?" stage before we started to get it tight enough to start liking it the way we played it.

In response to Grim's question. I've learned that for most people, the first performance in a day is usually the best sounding, most passionate. Sitting in front of the mike for 20 takes is sometimes necessary, but it begins to show in the "attitude" of your singing. So, yes, it's nice to get a really nice take pretty much immediately. I now limit myself to three takes in a day per song I'm working on vocally because it was obvious on my last tracks that trying to nail the vocals was just not working. If it takes three weeks at three takes per day to get something useable, it's still better than "that 18th take is not horrible". AFA piano and bass, I can pretty much sit down and wing it and get great performances (never needed more than three takes)... Guitars, not so much.

 

[miroslav]

I prefer tight and rehearsed...though that doesn't really prevent "spontaneity", IMO.
IOW...you rehearse a part until it's tight...then give it a rest...then lay it down.
It's still spontaneous if you let yourself feel it...instead of having to think about "getting it right" 'cuz it's only your first/second pass.

I think when you just go for it, there's more of that "thought process" and concern...than once it's well rehearsed and you're just playing it with a flow, rather than "clinging to it" for fear of messing up. If you're flying along on that first pass and you hit some sour notes...it has an effect on what comes next, VS when you KNOW your part and you can just let loose without concern.

 

[BroKen_H]

Miro, that's exactly what I meant by going through the hate it stage. Good explain!

 

[JDOD]

I think I see what you mean, but that's like going back to it the next day when you like it again. There's nothing wrong with getting the song instinctively under your fingers, but when I get a take I want it's normally first or 2nd when I start a session followed by a couple of hours of tinkering.

One thing I often do (I record on my own mainly) is lay down the drums and bass; then whatever guitar parts I want and lay any lead on the top.

Then I go back and redo the bass and the guitar parts, playing along with what I already have. Gives those early parts that were played with a pretty "naked" track a band to play along with so you get a bit more feel into it.

 

[miroslav]

I think I see what you mean, but that's like going back to it the next day when you like it again. There's nothing wrong with getting the song instinctively under your fingers, but when I get a take I want it's normally first or 2nd when I start a session followed by a couple of hours of tinkering.

OK...but what does that mean? Is your first/second tracking pass the ONLY two times you've ever played those parts?
I think people are mixing up practicing before recording...with actual tracking passes.
If you practice something until you know it....and then you go for that "first/second" pass thing...well, you've already gotten the song down in your head, it's not your first/second time....is it?
How often do you write a song without actually playing/rehearsing the song and its parts AS you are writing it?

By the time I start tracking one of my songs....I've probably played it a hundred times over while composing it, so all those "spontaneous" ideas are already there in my head...it's just a matter of performing them as I hear them, and sometimes that might take more than 1/2 passes.

If you can walk into a studio to record a song that someone else wrote, and you don't know the song...and then you just hear it a couple of times and from that you lay down your track perfectly in only one or two passes...THAT'S pretty good, and THAT is what I call "spontaneous".

 

[BroKen_H]

I've met some of those. I hate them!

Only kidding. It's a gift like any other, and I'm sure they've worked with that gift enough to make me glad I hadn't spent that much time on it...

 

[ido1957]

If you play sloppy it will sound sloppy. Don't try and equate sloppy to spontaneous.

 

[Bobbsy]

Speaking as one who just does the recording rather than being musical myself, the best recordings I make tend to be people or bands who are very rehearsed and tight, to the point that they can then DELIBERATELY vary their sound. Particularly with bands it can be great when different members play off each other.

The best analogy I can think of is some of the abstract and impressionist painters. Many of them had absolutely impeccable technique but then chose to go off the "realism" track and express themselves. However, it wasn't just being sloppy--their efforts were very deliberate.

 

[JDOD]

Suppose I am describing it from the POV of someone that purely records solo; writing the songs as I am recording them.

My usual format is this:
Generally playing; come up with a riff/sound that I like (happy accident) record it so I don't forget.
Imagine how I want the bass/drums to sound, lay them down. Start thinking about structure, intro/verse/chorus/verse/chorus/interlude etc. work out a few different riffs and how the bits are going to fit together, work on my drum fills, tidy up the bass playing etc. Then finally play the guitar parts through properly.

When I finally play the guitar parts through it will actually be the first time I have played them for the whole length of the song. It does actually leave room for spontaneity as by this point I won't have given any "concious" thought as to how hard I'll be hitting every note, where I will be toning it down a bit, where I will go a bit mental. I'll just be enjoying playing my new song for the first couple of times.

 

[JDOD]

Sorry to quote myself:

"how the bits are going to fit together, work on my drum fills, tidy up the bass playing etc."

This is the bit that takes the time. I might have two riffs I think are killer and definitely belong in the same song but can't link them together or something, tidying up my drums takes me ages too; I invariably decide that the sound of the hi hat is like a saw going through my brain after a while or that the snare sounds like someone stamping on a beer can.

I'm not much of a bassist so I tend to think of it as a necessary evil and don't embelish it much, predominantly stick to route notes in the rhythm of the song. I do occasionally come up with some cool bass stuff though. I think its just that it's really rare that I pick up my bass when I want to just enjoy playing - I always go to the guitar first. I normally get the bass line laid down pretty easy.

 

[ecc83]

Depends who's paying!

And this might seem strange given my oft voiced antipathy to tape! But... You did not ***k about much with NAB reels costing what they did/do!

Then I think this is moot?
"You have to KNOW the rules before you can break them"

Dave.

 

[grimtraveller]

"You have to KNOW the rules before you can break them"

I do a delivery to this company that makes precision watches and for the last couple of years they've had this poster that has that on it and I've had a few good conversations with one of the guys there about it because I don't agree with that. Many artists instinctively break rules without knowing it and them. And a lot of those "rules" are things that have been determined by someone, somewhere but are not of any interest or concern to the person apparently breaking them.
It's a wonderfully thought provoking statement though !
I think rules can be the path to liberation/liberty in any particular discipline or they can be a straitjacket.

 

[ecc83]

I do a delivery to this company that makes precision watches and for the last couple of years they've had this poster that has that on it and I've had a few good conversations with one of the guys there about it because I don't agree with that. Many artists instinctively break rules without knowing it and them. And a lot of those "rules" are things that have been determined by someone, somewhere but are not of any interest or concern to the person apparently breaking them.
It's a wonderfully thought provoking statement though !
I think rules can be the path to liberation/liberty in any particular discipline or they can be a straitjacket.

Ok, well. Perhaps "rules" should be pit in quotes as well. I suspect all the jazz greats KNEW all the scales and modes? They just did not KNOW they knew!

Hey! I used to drive my son nuts! He would be jazzing away to something on guitar and I would say "That's Got You Under My Skin" . "How! Do you know that dad?
Thing is I came home for lunch from school for 15years and listened to Workers Playtime on The Light Programme and heard all the standards by such as Anne Shelton, Yana, David Whitfield, Matt Munroe and many others..Ooo! Musn't forget Doddy and Harry Secombe!

I can't play for ***t but I had a near eidetic memory for tunes and lyrics. Mostly gone now.


Dave.