this is weird i need the help of Pro tools users ASAP!!

[czar of bizarre]

how is everyone doing? i have something i need to explain and i need advice because this situation is costing me A LOT of cash and it seems like everytime i see a light at the end of the tunnel something pops up.


i took my 16 bit wav files into a studio and loaded them into pro tools. against the SOUND advice from a person on this board i mixed at the studio. $2500 down the drain (the engineer would NEVER listen to what i told him to do).

so i ask them to back up all my files so i can take the audio and split.

i purchased blank cds (a 25 pack) and went into the studio. i was told it would take 2 hours. it ended up taking 6.

here is where things get really weird. when i FIRST took the files in each song was on its own cd (a disc full of multitracked files). so all of the tracks in song #1 had the same start and ending time (to make sure they all lined up). same with song 2 3 4 5 etc etc etc etc.

i had stereo and mono files to import but now i have NO stereo files on my new cds. heres an example

original e piano: 30.2 mb 3 minutes 23 seconds. stereo wav 16 bit 44.1k


now after he backs it up and i put the disc in my pc i see that epiano is now broken into E PIANO L and E PAINO R.

e piano l is now: 40 mb 3 minutes 23 seconds. mono wav 24 bit 44.1 k

e piano r is now: 40 mb 3 minutes 23 seconds. mono wav 24 bit 44.1 k


so if one stereo wav went in why am i getting larger mono files? i can understand that the files are now 24 bit but why did he break up the stereo file into two seperate files?

why am i not getting a STEREO file that is larger because of the 16 to 24 bit conversion?

by doing that several songs took up 4 or 5 discs.

is this an issue in pro tools or did he mess up? i told the guy from the start to make sure that each track in each song had the same start and stop and that each mono track be RENDERED as mono and stereo as stereo.


c.o.b

ps i hope i was clear on what i was trying to explain. basically my files are now broken up and larger than what they were.

 

[M.Brane]

ProTools does not use stereo files in session. To import a stereo file into a PT session it must be split into 2 mono files.

 

[czar of bizarre]

so are you saying that i didnt import a stereo file? i know for a FACT that i didnt split the stereo files into mono.

we are also talking about *exporting* at this point not *importing*. is pro tools capable of *exporting* stereo files? if not how does one mix down on pro tools?


c.o.b

 

[Shailat]

Today studios don't survive long if they dont understand the concept of keeping clients happy....to a degree....

He must have exported the files straight from the session one by one and so as he imported the stereo files, PT turned them into two mono files (panned left right they are stereo....).
And so you now have the stereo files but split.....

To have givin them back as a stereo file (depending on what software version he has....) he would have to "bounce" them (mix them down) back to a stereo file but that would be as a "wav" file and not a PT session file and take a lot of time and pain as he would have to "play" them back.
Did you ask him to keep it as a PT session? Perhaps he thought the fact that you wanted them to line up, it would be better to keep them in a session status.

 

[czar of bizarre]

Today studios don't survive long if they dont understand the concept of keeping clients happy....to a degree....

true.

He must have exported the files straight from the session one by one and so as he imported the stereo files, PT turned them into two mono files (panned left right they are stereo....).

yep. i have NEVER experienced this with any other program. from cakewalk to cubase to acid. if i load a stereo file in i get a stereo file when im finished. i dont get two seperate files that are taking up more space than the original.

To have givin them back as a stereo file (depending on what software version he has....) he would have to "bounce" them (mix them down) back to a stereo file but that would be as a "wav" file

he had 5.1 and i kept telling him that i needed the files as wav.

and not a PT session file and take a lot of time and pain as he would have to "play" them back.

so he would have had to bounce the piano files to make it one stereo wav and play them back to make sure it was correct? we didnt have to bounce mono files from the start. that sucks.

Did you ask him to keep it as a PT session?

no i asked him to export everything as wav files and to make sure that the wav files (in each individual song) all had the same start and and times. here is an example.

1.mono hi hats start at 4 seconds end at 3 mins 29 seconds

2.mono snare start at 4 seconds end at 3 mins 29 seconds

3.mono kick start at 4 seconds end at 3 mins 29 seconds


now the kicks might not be heard until 45 seconds into the song but everything still lines up. so basically its a file with a lot of BLANK space.

so if song #3 was 5 minutes long every instrument or vocal track would have to be 5 minutes. if not the tracks would not sync.

Perhaps he thought the fact that you wanted them to line up, it would be better to keep them in a session status.

honestly i dont know what he was thinking. all i know is when i loaded the cds and checked the disc i saw a trillion files.


so what should i do now? should i tell him to correct it or should i move on? this is NOT what i asked for.


c.o.b

 

[Shailat]

No he doesnt have to bounce and then listen...the bouncing itself happends by the file playing back and as that is finished the processing starts. so If you want 10 files thats playing back 10 times the song and then waiting for it to process....time...money...

I would in order to save money get a friend with a 001/002 and simply ask this engineer to burn you a data file of the session of PT ( that should take about 4 min per song)...load the session on to your 001/002 and do it yourself (bouncing). Save yourself some money. Even try to pay somebody here with a 001/002 to do it for you for cheap.

Question - why do you want the files back. Not happy with the end result in the studio? Want to remix the whole thing?

 

[czar of bizarre]

No he doesnt have to bounce and then listen...the bouncing itself happends by the file playing back and as that is finished the processing starts. so If you want 10 files thats playing back 10 times the song and then waiting for it to process....time...money...

man ive already shelled out big bucks. i just want things how they should be.

I would in order to save money get a friend with a 001/002 and simply ask this engineer to burn you a data file of the session of PT ( that should take about 4 min per song)...load the session on to your 001/002 and do it yourself (bouncing). Save yourself some money. Even try to pay somebody here with a 001/002 to do it for you for cheap.

the thing is i dont have pro tools. if i could simply load the files back into cubase it would be a piece of cake. now im trying to load hundreds of files......that wont work. so basically what you are saying is to someone else with a pt rig and load all the files and do it the right way?

Question - why do you want the files back. Not happy with the end result in the studio?

correct. isnt it the engineers job to do as he is told? if i want 24 mono files panned to the right side and one track panned to the left shouldnt he do it? as long as its not breaking his gear shouldnt he listen?

Want to remix the whole thing?

yes. this is a case of having SUPERIOR gear but a DUMMY behind the board.

everything i told him to do went in one ear and out the other. so i said forget it,i have everything tracked he wont listen, im out of here.

 

[M.Brane]

so are you saying that i didnt import a stereo file? i know for a FACT that i didnt split the stereo files into mono.

What I'm saying is if the files were imported into a PT session they had to be split. PT will do this when you use the "import & convert" function in the region bin pull-down menu.

we are also talking about *exporting* at this point not *importing*. is pro tools capable of *exporting* stereo files? if not how does one mix down on pro tools?

The only way to export as stereo files would be to do a bounce to disk, which PT does in real time.

What happened to your original wav files?

 

[czar of bizarre]

^^^^ i still have them (the original files). maybe i can load up the orginals and also add in the new stuff (vox and guitar parts). since we changed the start time on 1 song that might not work. on the other songs it shouldnt be a problem. im going to try this.


cob

ps thanks brane thanks shailat.

 

[Shailat]

U can load the wavs into your software and do it from there.

My suggestion was to save the exporting to wav done at the studio....If he could burn PT sessions that would take min. instead of hours.

not entierly correct that the engineer has to do exactly what you wan right off the top. First he has to explain to you why he thinks his way is better and to convince you to do it as he is the "expert"and in many cases knows better....... BUT !!!!! if he cant convince you then he should either listen to you or compromise with you or decide for himself to let you take control by wording it with "I personaly would do that" or return your money and let you go elsewere by saying "my professional integraty wont let me do that. What he should NOT have done was Take your money and not listen.

 

[czar of bizarre]

it wasnt like i was telling him to drown the tracks with reverb or blow his speakers by turning the bass all the way up. from panning to volume to eq cuts he would NOT listen. i know my voice and i know i made a lot of "s" sounds in one paticular song. i asked him to cut those frequencies with a de-esser......he didnt do it.


now i have all these files and its no way that my pc can mix all of these files. now i have to find someone else to mix for me.

what a waste of hard earned cash.


cob

 

[Shailat]

Next time you record make a few visits to the studio. Check out the personal...see if they fit your own personality...sit them down and discuss working conditions. Talk to other clients who worked there...ask to hear mix's done by that specific Engineer who you are going to work with.

Homework will save you money.

 

[TexRoadkill]

It sounds like you got what you asked for. Individual .wav files with the silence filled. The fact that the stereo tracks were split is not that big of a deal that is how most stereo work is done. I don't EVER use stereo interleaved files while multi-tracking. Only on final mixdown file.

You do have a tedious job ahead of you but how many tracks are you really talking about? If you want to be compatible with PT you need to get a cheap version or do stuff the hard way. You might download PT Free and see if you can make it run.

Are you SURE that the mixes he did really suck? Have you gotten some second opinions? Maybe he did them well but you don't know what your talking about? I'm not trying to insult you but sometimes people have some pretty strange ideas about how things should sound.

 

[czar of bizarre]

@shailet i asked everything you listed except for one thing. the one thing that ruined me. i didnt listen to mixes done by the engineer. that killed me BIG TIME.

@tex i had already pre mixed the tracks. i didnt mix anything down but i played with it waaaaaaaaaay before i took the tracks into the studio. i saw no need to record everything in mono. pianos were spread in stereo,some strings were spread etc etc etc. you get the picture. if i didnt WANT to pan them a different way i see no reason in breaking them up. in my opinion what went in should have came out. a stereo file went in as 30.2 mb. it came out as two files each being 40.mb.

in regards to the songs i have 15 songs. 12 of them are actual songs the other 3 are intro interlude and outro. the least amount of tracks in one song would be 16.

tex i am 100000000000000000% POSITIVE, without a shadow of a doubt that the mixes SUCK. they are not up to my standards. a joe off the street might think that it sounds good but i know deep down that it doesnt sound good. could it be tweeked and mastered? yes it could, but mastering shouldnt be the fix it stage. you cant polish a turd so why even try?


5 minutes ago i did my test. i loaded the original files into cubase and played them back. no problem. i loaded the guitar and vocals from the NEW session. everything lined up BUT.....the pc couldnt handle 28 channels of music (475mhz amd k6-2,512mbram,7200 rpm,98s.e.) so now im faced with a dilema.

i wanted to get a new pc anyway and im sure i could do a better mix job. the problem is this. im close to bagging a deal with a label and i DONT want them to fit my bill (the less i owe them the better). so should i go to another studio and mix or should i get a new pc (actually new mobo/chipset) and mix myself?

each backup cd has the audio,a "fade folder" and a "session files back up" folder.

cob

 

[Executivos]

as some mentioned before, when you import a stereo file into protools, it converts it to two mono files (piano.wav the stereo file will turn into piano l.wav and piano r.wav) the files are now bigger 40 mb instead of 30 mb because they are 24 bit.

why didn't you just have him use a 16 bit session? you don't gain anything (as far as i know) by converting something recorded at 16 bit to 24 bit later

protools free won't really help you. it's based on protools 5.0 not 5.1. Protools 5.1 treats stereo files differently then 5.0. In 5.0 i believe they will even show up mono. if you try to open a 5.1 session that contains stereo files in 5.0 i believe it just says "no" I don't think 5.0 even has a stereo track period.

did you do any recording at the studio or just mixing? if there are "millions" of files he may not have cleared up the unused junk. it sounds like you have the session files there.

anyway if you don't get things worked out and don't have any friends with protools, email me and i should be able to help you (dirt cheap) with it if you mail me protools sessions. It sucks that you got ripped off by that studio.

ALWAYS listen to their mixes. not just in their studio but ask for a cd and listen to it in the car. EVERY studio tour i ever take they play it back in their control room, with the sub bumping (which usually blows the clients way) playing mixes in their control room for clients is the biggest advantage they have but doesn't really show their work.

 

[Shailat]

Well....

Forget the past.

You have to decide if you are capable of mixing your material yourself and making it sound good. If you think you are up to the task then get a new PC and do it yourself.

Try a sub mix by mixing down the drums to a two track stereo file.
Sub mix vocals and sub mix what else you can like guitars or what ever....then if your PC can handle it, do a mix and try it out. ask here at the clinic what people think..ask friends...ask yourself.
See if what you think you CAN do is actualy a good idea.

It seems to me that you have very strong opinions on how it should sound and maybe going to another studio would bring you the same dissapointment. Make sure you are really making the right decision. Play for people the mix that engineer did.
See what they think....maybe you should rethink your outlook.

If you are SO confident that you know what is right then just mix it at home and prepare to defend your mix

 

[LAZI]

What up CZAR? You always come off as a cat who knows what you want and what you're doing. I suggest copping the computer parts and mixing the project yourself. Just another knotch on your belt... Plus you take more control knowing you can fix stuff as you see fit without having to waste time explaining what you want. Allows more creativity and it's on your time not somebody elses. If you know you can do it then why not. Turn your water to wine.

Run your mixes by somebody you respect and make em list five. If they can't then you should be on point.

Other than you is there somebody you trust to mix your project?

 

[czar of bizarre]

@exec you said

why didn't you just have him use a 16 bit session? you don't gain anything (as far as i know) by converting something recorded at 16 bit to 24 bit later

well i recorded vocals and guitar over dubs into pro tools. i guess he recorded those at 24 bit. i have no clue as if pro tools is capable of working 16 and 24 bit files within the SAME song. another thing is when he was dumping the stuff on master link (we dumped to dat,1/2 inch and masterlink) he dumped at 16 bit. would it have been better to dump it at 24 bit and dither it before the cd was created?

protools free won't really help you. it's based on protools 5.0 not 5.1. Protools 5.1 treats stereo files differently then 5.0. In 5.0 i believe they will even show up mono. if you try to open a 5.1 session that contains stereo files in 5.0 i believe it just says "no" I don't think 5.0 even has a stereo track period.

actually he said to not open it in 5.0

did you do any recording at the studio or just mixing? if there are "millions" of files he may not have cleared up the unused junk. it sounds like you have the session files there.

vocals and guitars. we got into the mixing but this guy would NOT listen. i told him no buss compression......i get buss compression. i ask him to shelve some frequencies he doesnt do it. its like EVERYTHING i told him to do went in one ear and out the other. i never listen. someone on this board told me to record at the spot but NOT to mix. i didnt listen. its my fault actually. the session files are in a seperate folder.

anyway if you don't get things worked out and don't have any friends with protools, email me and i should be able to help you (dirt cheap) with it if you mail me protools sessions. It sucks that you got ripped off by that studio.

will you let me listen to your mixes? can you mix one song and send it back to me to see how it sounds?

ALWAYS listen to their mixes. not just in their studio but ask for a cd and listen to it in the car. EVERY studio tour i ever take they play it back in their control room, with the sub bumping (which usually blows the clients way) playing mixes in their control room for clients is the biggest advantage they have but doesn't really show their work.

a rock band that recently signed to interscope recorded or mixed (maybe they did both) at that studio. it sounds great but the BOSS (OWNER) was the guy who put the smack down. they left me with a lacky..........why me.....

shailat no engineer in his right mind should tell a client "dont worry about the strings being too high. you can lower it in mastering with a compressor". not only will the strings be lowered but EVERYTHING else in the frequency range or close to it will be altered.

i have the LOW end of the piano coming out of the RIGHT speaker.............isnt the low end supposed to be panned to the left and the high end to the right?

i had a song that had back ground vocals being panned in unison with guitar rifts........when i played the cd the background vox never moved on the first chorus.

hell even the owner said "your trying to do pre mastering". i said "no i want my mixes to be clean,i dont want to have to correct mistakes".

i have the cash to go to another spot i also know someone who would be perfect for teh job (as far as mixing). the thing is he doesnt use a computer to record or mix. he has 2 pc's but 1 is used for sequencing and the other for wavelab and mastering.

@lazi whats up man hows life?


yeah i am the jesus of rap and rock and roll. i have to turn it into wine. yep you are right.

yeah man i need to run it by like 5 people and have them list 5. yep you are right again.

yeah i trust 3 people to mix it.

doug chancellor (sound farm recording studio)

khyree (ybb records)

czar of bizarre

i guess its one of those cases of wanting your stuff to sound how it should (to compete on the market), working the project to death (trying to make it perfect) and running into trouble when you think you are almost finished and see light at the end of the tunnel.

thanks guys. your replies,info,tech help and words of wisdom are helping me out big time. i appreciate it.


c.o.b

ps excuse all typos.

 

[Executivos]

well i recorded vocals and guitar over dubs into pro tools. i guess he recorded those at 24 bit. i have no clue as if pro tools is capable of working 16 and 24 bit files within the SAME song. another thing is when he was dumping the stuff on master link (we dumped to dat,1/2 inch and masterlink) he dumped at 16 bit. would it have been better to dump it at 24 bit and dither it before the cd was created?

it is not capable of working with both, but if most of your stuff was already 16 bit, he should have just left it, and recorded the new stuff at 16 bit. if the stuff at mixing time was then 24 bit, he should have bounced it 24 bit to the master link. Actually he should have just bounced the wav files as 24 bit mixes and put them on a cd for mastering. it makes no sense to have him convert it back to 16, a mastering house can do a better job.

actually he said to not open it in 5.0

yeah you shouldn't.....someone else recommended using protools free, but i was saying, not to because ptfree is based off of protools 5.0

will you let me listen to your mixes? can you mix one song and send it back to me to see how it sounds?

I was actually just suggesting that i could clean up the files for you, and send them back so that you can mix them how you want them. I guess I can mix them, but it would really depend on the music style. If you want to check out some of my work, checkout www.socialstatusmusic.com There's some demos on there (link to mp3.com) it's kinda but it's decent. "My Solution" is the most recent one. Drums were tracked at a mediocre studio and that drummer was terrible so be forgiving.

if you can upload a mix of one of you songs, i'll listen and tell you if i can help you.

once again, I feel really bad for you. There's a studio around here which EVERY band goes to...the owner kinda knows whats up but he almost never works anymore and the other engineers all screw bands over. Every band I get is from them and the stories im told are terrible.

 

[czar of bizarre]

^^^^ HEY DO YOU GUYS REALLY LIKE HANGING OUT IN DUMPSTERS? AS IM TYPING THIS REPLY IM LOOKING AT THE SITE SO I HAVENT HEARD THE MUSIC YET.

IM THINKING ABOUT BUYING PRO TOOLS DIGI 001 FOR THE PC. IM AT 475 MHZ,512 MB OF RAM AND A 7200 RPM DRIVE WITH DUAL BOOT (98SE AND XP PRO).

WOULD IT BE BETTER FOR ME TO GET THAT AND MIX THE PROJECT (IF I DECIDE TO MIX IT) OR WOULD IT BE BETTER FOR ME TO GET A NEW MOBO AND CHIPSET (WITH NEW RAM) AND MIX IN CUBASE?

C.O.B