This is a bad sign

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twist

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I've had my Seagull 12 string for just over 2 months. It's only got a few hours of actual playing time on it. When I bought it, the guitar tech at the store set it up and put new strings on it. It wouldn't tune up very well at all, but I thought I'd wrestle with it for a while and see how it was after I got used to it.

I played it a few times on and off, and then I kinda forgot about it for a couple weeks when the weather started getting nice. I took it out to play it the other night, and the action was so hi, I couldn't even play chords in the first position. Intonation was so bad, no 2 chords in the first position could be satisfactorily tuned. I decided I should take it back to see if a neck adjustment would cure the problem.

As I put it into the case, I noticed a small rise in the surface of the top; a little "welt" if you will, just below and adjacent to the bridge. It actually looks like the tension on the bridge has caused the top to buckle like pavement does in the winter. At this point it's barely noticeable, but with time, I could just picture the top actually splitting. I'm surprised the finish didn't crack.

So, it's back to the music store tomorrow. Before I go though, I'd like to ask, can a decent 12 string be had for $500? Shouldn't I at least be able to expect it to tune up and be playable with reasonable action? Does anyone have any experience with Seagull, good or bad? I bought this guitar because it's tone blew away everything else in that price range. And the quality appeared to be quite good. Maybe just a lemon?


To be continued,

Twist
 
Didja have it tuned up to concert pitch ? Baaaad idea if you're not playing it often. And most 12 strings won't take it at all.

I've got a huge Hagstrom H-33 with an I-beam for a truss rod, and when I played it often (at least an hour a day), it was no problem tuned to A440. But when it started to stay in its case for extended periods of time it could no longer handle being tuned to concert pitch. I had to leave it tuned a full tone down.

That's where it stays to this day. And I have had no problems since (the top had separated from the soundblock at the base of the neck due to the added tension - it's repaired now - good as new). And the action on it is as good as my electric. Look for a Hagstrom/Bjarton BJ-12 or H-33 used - beautiful sounding piece !

Check this site out for info (this page is kind of like my H-33):

http://www.hagstrom.org.uk/ukacoustics.htm



Hope the damage on the seagull is not beyond repair...

mike
 
I don't know where you live, but your 12 string may be dehydrated. No guarantee, but it wouldn't hurt to put 2 "damp-it's" in the sound hole and wet them every day for 10-14 days, then just one wetted once a week. Then do a truss rod adjustment, and see if the situation has improved. If not, return the guitar to Seagull, and see if they'll replace it. Your guitar shows all the symptoms of one that has been overstressed by long time storage with the strings fully tensioned and one that is dehydrated. Also, do you store it in a hardshell case or gigbag/cardboard junk? You cannot protect a guitar from drying out without a good case. For more on guitar hydration, check Taylor's website. Hope it lives- Richie
 
Send it back for a replacement or a refund....
It aint ever gonna get "better"...ya know?
Why put money into it of you can get a replacement...
I like Seagulls but, there are always gonna be lemons..
no matter what brand name.....
Good luck,
Joe :)
 
I'd take it back and get another, and the new one I'd tune to D rather than E and and use light strings.
 
As was already pointed out...

...12-strings aren't normally tuned to A440... they're typically dropped to Eb or D......... the tension of 12-strings on that neck at A440 is pretty damn high!

Bruce
 
Hey guys,

I'm glad the bbs is finally back up again. Whew! Withdrawal!

Thanks for your opinions and advice. I took the guitar back. They are going to look it over to see what the problem is. My sales person indicated that if it is defective it could be replaced.

To be continued.


Twist
 
update.........

Well they called Tues. to let me know my guitar was ready., so I went to pick it up Tues nite. I took it out of the case to inspect it, and sure enough, the action was way better. The intonation was good, and it tuned up quite nicely. The guitar tech said he had to file the string slots in the nut to set intonation. He said that would be covered by the warranty, but they wanted to charge me $40 for a setup. I said I thought it should be no charge as the guitar has only a couple playing hours on it at the most, and went to find my sales person. She agreed with me, but said salespeople and service people don't always agree.

She went back to talk the tech for a few minutes, and returned to inform me there was nothing she could do about the charges as their sales dept. and service dept. are separate. She told me it was too late for her to exchange the guitar (10 weeks), and I should contact the store manager.

Without losing my temper, I reminded her that the guitar had a defect in the spruce top which I felt could only get worse with time, and left the store.

I talked to the store owner this morning, and he was very apologetic. He said Seagull was a very reputable company, and they would stand behind the product. He's getting me a new guitar.

I wonder if they'll set it up right this time, or if they'll try to charge me for the setup? I'll let you know.



Twist
 
Glad to hear that you are getting a new guitar. Like others have mentioned, there is really no reason to tune to 440. If you need to use a capo. If you do it to this one, I guarantee that the top will roll again. Very common. I would recommend at least a half step down. D would be better.

Fangar
 
I owned an old Takamine 12-string for a few years and I always left it tuned to concert pitch and had no problems. I never heard of dropping it down a tone to D (though I will admit I wasn't exactly hanging out in 12-string circles).

All this discussion peaked my curiosity so I searched around on this a little and most of the sites I found showed to tune the 12-string to concert pitch. A few of them said as an aside that you might want to drop it a tone or a semitone to get a richer sound and relieve some of the stress on the neck.

From what I read it seams to really depend on if the guitar was built strong enough to be tuned to concert pitch or not, but it seems most 12-strings should be able to handle the stress. So, I guess I would find out what Seagull recommends.

Better safe then sorry though, so dropping the tuning down a bit can't be a bad idea. You definately have to be careful about the environment and the stress on the neck with a 12-string.

As always, YMMV.
 
From the Seagull site - description on the S-12...

Twelve string guitars must endure a great deal of added stress on the neck. The Seagull neck design offers superior stability, even on the twelve string models tuned to concert pitch. The straight string pull of the tapered Seagull headstock is an especially big advantage when it comes to tuning a twelve string guitar and keeping it in tune.
 
Thanks Bruce,

Yeah, I saw that too. I have kept the guitar tuned below A440 anyway, and will continue to do so when I get the new one they've promised me. I still have confidence that this will be resolved to my satisfaction. The Seagull products appear to be good quality in general. I'll post as to the final outcome.


Twist
 
I have a Takamine 12 ( EF385 - I think ) and an old Yamaha 12 that are always kept at concert pitch. The Yamaha is probably over 20 years old and has always been kept in a gross cardboard like case with the strings tuned to 440. It's been in a closet now for about 2 years. I can go pick it up anytime and it is most likely in tune. Never had any problem with the bridge on either one. A 12 would probably sound fuller tuned down a bit but I would be worried about keeping it in tune down there. It's hard enough tuning one to the correct pitch. You would have to watch for the dreaded buzz when tuned down also. I hate buzz.
 
I would say post back in about a year. I have been around a lot of 12 strings that had this problem. We had some in a store that I ran, even higher priced models where the bridges would begin to head north while the top followed in tow even when they were tuned down. While the neck re-enforcement (When in doubt hyphenate) will help the neck to maintain is position and helps the tuning, it will not play any role as to the tension placed on the bridge and ultimately the top by the tension of the strings. I know that segull make some very nice guitars, but I would rather see you get years of enjoyment out of it instead. Also, woods today are not what they were even 10-15 years ago. There are all sorts of new issues that arise from these woods. Cheers,

Fangar
 
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