THIS applies to EVERYONE

Massive Master

www.massivemastering.com
And maybe you've seen it before. But I read a lot of posts (not just here) that have issues with "flat" sounding mixes.

This is just an "intro" video to a much deeper concept - and this is why studios put so much effort into their space - and this is why mic'ing everything from a foot away and adding reverb is NOT the same thing as proper mic placement for the context of the mix.

The video is based on classical recording and classical instruments - but it is most definitely applicable to everything. Watch and absorb.

 

TalismanRich

Well-known member
What???? Where you put the mic makes a difference??? 😲 Who'd have thunk it?

Thanks for posting this. Hopefully folks will check it out.
 

ecc83

Well-known member
Bloody brilliant John! My son, who is a total numpty with things acoustico-electric has found (just by fekkinLISTENING!) that his modest setup, Mackie EM-91c LDC and UMC204HD records his classical Bach guitar transcriptions much better with the mic placed just over a mtr away. His flat in France is not large but only sparsely furnished so it has some, relatively nice acoustics. He has said he would like to add some reverb but does not have access to anything really nice and cheap! (any suggs grtflly rcvd). He does however tell me he finds the reverb added to many commercial solo classical guitar recording, "swimmy and OTT" ?

Dave.
 

Folkcafe

Active member
In the early days of surround sound, we did some experimental classical recordings. Every well known venue has a high end stereo pair of microphones that have been meticulously placed. Recording a concert is usually just a matter of showing up and plugging in. What is also not understood is how freaking expensive it is to commission a classical recording. It involves arrangements, rehearsal space, world class musicians, usually union and then the performance venue itself. Was fortunate to work for a large corporation with deep pockets.

So we arrange this surround sound session over a number of days without audience. We show up with racks and cases of gear and the technical director of the venue is beside himself and doesn't understand why we need all this gear. He says, "Sony was here last month and was very happy with the installed microphones". We explained to him what was up but I still don't think he was very happy.

What we were trying was recording the different orchestra sections in an attempt to separate them in 5.1 mixes. What we ended up with was interesting but not "classical" like. So much of the sound we expect from this genre is audience perspective at distance.

attheoffice.jpg
 

ecc83

Well-known member
Giving 'room' to a nylon string guitar to allow the sound to blossom is well known!

Dave - what DAW is your son using? I find ReaVerb (comes with Reaper) easy and good to use as long as you use an appropriate IR. Here's 250+ IR files to use with it, lots of plates and rooms of various sizes. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/t2e6ss6ytphdnrx/AADRpqATkvPWgwgsinvMfFw6a?dl=0
Thanks Mike I shall WeTransfer those to him. He has the free Reaper but if he needs to we can get it 'legalized! He is very deeply immersed in Samplitude Pro X 3. We have used a version of Samplitude for over ten years, do you know if the files will run in other DAWs?

I agree 'backing off' the acoustic guitar is known about but almost every forum tells peeps to "point mic at the body-neck join at about one foot distance". He has learned better since!

Dave.
 

gecko zzed

Grumpy Mod
Thanks Mike I shall WeTransfer those to him. He has the free Reaper but if he needs to we can get it 'legalized! He is very deeply immersed in Samplitude Pro X 3. We have used a version of Samplitude for over ten years, do you know if the files will run in other DAWs?

I agree 'backing off' the acoustic guitar is known about but almost every forum tells peeps to "point mic at the body-neck join at about one foot distance". He has learned better since!

Dave.
There is no difference between the trial and the paid versions of Reaper other than the nag screen that pops up on the former.

You can import files from other other DAWs into Reaper ok, so long as the other DAW doesn't not use an exclusive format.

Reaper also has ReaRoute, which allows you to run two DAWs simultaneously and record from one to the other. So you could load Reaper, set its inputs to ReaRoute channels, load Samplitude, set its outputs to ReaRoute channels then hit record in Reaper and play in Samplitude.
 

LazerBeakShiek

Well-known member
and this is why mic'ing everything from a foot away and adding reverb is NOT the same thing as proper mic placement for the context of the mix.
Yes, I find myself moving the microphones further and further away. It sounds better.

With microphones placed that far away in that video, what do the levels look like?
 

Farview

www.farviewrecording.com
Yes, I find myself moving the microphones further and further away. It sounds better.

With microphones placed that far away in that video, what do the levels look like?
They would be the same, since you would turn up the preamps to get the appropriate levels.
 

LazerBeakShiek

Well-known member
Most dynamics have a suggested use around 6-10 inches. 57's 58's, EV's,etc. Not sure they would do anything at 12 feet away. What pre are you using?
Screenshot 2021-04-19 000605.jpg

My Ribbon's if I stretch out a meter or so have a natural bass roll off I like. Those microphones in the video are far.

""point mic at the body-neck join at about one foot distance".
On acoustic I put the mic on the 12th for the finger noise. The LDC 3x the distance away gets the body. Or A mic at 5-12th fret and a mic at the bridge. Anything from the sound hole is too boomy.
 
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rob aylestone

Well-known member
I worry about these kinds of video because if the viewers don’t completely understand the points they are making they start to formulate rules, and often, they’re just guidelines you follow/reject depending on what you are trying to do. French horns are a good example. I can imagine somebody now assuming you should mic from the rear because in the video you hear brightness and clarity from the rear. What they miss is that the thing was invented and developed to be heard from the front, and that bright sound would be always reflected, which also spreads it. In an orchestra they are separated from the rest of the horns because they are used in the music for washes and texture.

you can record an orchestra perfectly well with a pair of SM57s if that’s all you have. What people don’t understand is that orchestras are like a synth patch. Loads of separate parameters that sort of blend into the finished thing. Orchestral musicians are a music factory. Each individually talented and in demand. They also are a team. For some jobs, there will be more or less, but usually they know each other. Union membership in orchestras is much higher than with typical pop musicians. One of my job roles involved stopping the producers costing money. The engineers will suggest maybe adding outriggers to a Decca Tree. The producer lives the idea of the more spacious sound, I on the other hand, start doing the overrun sums. musicians work in 3 hour blocks, so spending 30 minutes rigging the extra mics and the length of the piece might mean they are only up to bar 96 when the magic three hours clocks up, so we’re into overtime, and overtime for an orchestra is NOT calculated by minutes, it’s hours! An extra session for ten minutes playing? It’s the music BUSINESS.

recording orchestras and to be fair, any acoustic instrument always means recording the room. Adding the room is a given, it would be great if the room added niceness, but sometimes it adds nastiness. Bad rooms means artificial reverb and closer mics. Move away from a mic and it changes.

in that video the whole point was to record instruments in a live space with mics in odd positions. It’s education not reality. Note they used A/B which enhances time related differences, maybe to the point the weaker students couldn’t avoid hearing it. Look at the mic positions they chose. They were designed to reveal differences, NOT get the most appropriate sound. The videos are educational, which is not the same as commercial. A/B vs X/Y in a wonderful acoustic space creates very obvious differences so for education that’s what you need. No point being subtle when you are educating, because less trained ears cannot hear it.
a great video but you need to think about what you see and hear. Listen again on headphones, not speakers and you will hear some quite strange things. The very good violin played by a very good player. Listen again and listen for the fingering. The wonderful, sound is largely the room. The fingering is blurred with some of those mic placements. Sounds great on first listen, but watch again with your eyes closed and try to hear the articulation of the phrases. More difficult. I’m not saying bad of course, but ask yourself what exactly are you hearing.
 

ecc83

Well-known member
Tell you what Rob? It is both sobering and depressing that someone has the time, money, place, equipment and expertise to setup such a demonstration!
My son likes it all and tells me he is going to rip a few of the sounds for his personal use. He is doing note by note constructions of Beethoven's 5th and some Debussy. Not have a bag and then some he struggles to find quality samples. He has spent his time in lockdown just playing classical guitar and reading scores and thinks he has packed in 5 years of practice in about a year.

Dave.
 

Farview

www.farviewrecording.com
Most dynamics have a suggested use around 6-10 inches. 57's 58's, EV's,etc. Not sure they would do anything at 12 feet away. What pre are you using?
View attachment 109532
Context is important. That graphic is talking about vocals or spoken word. In that context, you wouldnt want much room sound, so the mic needs to be closer.

It's been a while since I've done orchestral stuff, but one of the mic arrays I used at that theater had to be 30 feet in the air and 20 feet off the stage. But with an orchestra, you are essentially micing the room.

I have miced things from far away with a 58 without using any exotic preamps, either the preamps in my soundcraft Ghost or the Yamaha m5000 at the theater. You can only successfully do it in a recording situation, since it would feed back in a concert situation.
 

LazerBeakShiek

Well-known member
Most videos have the microphone a foot away. Cabinet in the center. Then they tell you to HPF the proximity out. Or angle it slightly away from the cabinet off axis to capture more of the room.

The sound is better if I put the cabinet against the wall and the microphone in the center of the room. What does that mean?
Against the wall the cabinet gets a bass boost. Pulling the microphone away to the center rolls off the bass. They cancel each other out. The room evens it out.
 
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Farview

www.farviewrecording.com
Most videos have the microphone a foot away. Cabinet in the center. Then they tell you to HPF the proximity out. Or angle it slightly away from the cabinet off axis to capture more of the room.

The sound is better if I put the cabinet against the wall and the microphone in the center of the room. What does that mean?
Against the wall the cabinet gets a bass boost. Pulling the microphone away to the center rolls off the bass. They cancel each other out. The room evens it out.
So now we are talking about micing cabinets instead of vocals?

If the sound is better the with the cab against the wall and the mic in the center of the room, job done. The reason for that will have to be the combination of the room, cabinet and guitar tone. I always got my best guitar tones close micing with a SM57 and a MD421, but i was always going for an in-your-face sound which is harder to get when you back the mic off.

I would also have the cabinet in a different room and the head in the control room. That way I could adjust the amp to get the sound I was looking for through the monitors. I wasn't trying to get it to sound good in the room, then work to capture that., I didn't think it mattered what it sounded like i the room, since there was no one in there listening to it.
 

Farview

www.farviewrecording.com
Ok, you mic it close. What are you doing about the proximity boom? HPF?
For the most part, I use it. If it's too much, I dial it out at the amp.

I tended toward darker guitar tones, using a high shelf to brighten them in the mix. I've found that I end up with a smoother high end than I would if I started with a bright guitar tone.
 

LazerBeakShiek

Well-known member
For the most part, I use it. If it's too much, I dial it out at the amp.

I tended toward darker guitar tones, using a high shelf to brighten them in the mix. I've found that I end up with a smoother high end than I would if I started with a bright guitar tone.
Oh, you get dark tones using a high shelf to brighten...youre being silly.

I feel like ..
 
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