Thinking of starting again with equipment…. Expert recommendations?

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Armistice

Armistice

Son of Yoda
I have been struggling for a year or so now attempting to record fingerstyle acoustic guitar with my home studio setup. I’m after a level of quality that will allow me to multi-track acoustic guitars (only) and have them sounding very good. My equipment and extensive experimenting to date have not yielded the sound I’m searching for.

I am able to get a recorded acoustic sound that works well with louder, rockier mixes featuring drums, bass, electric guitar etc. I’m not able to get a good enough sound that will stand up on its own, so my thought is that maybe the gear I’m using in the signal path just ain’t good enough to do this.

Here’s what I have:

Yamaha AW4416 recorder (not the problem, I presume)

Mics:
Rode NT2
Rode NT5s
MXL603s
Shure SM57 (not used on acoustic, just electric amped guitar, included for complete picture)

Pres:
Presonus MP20 (dual channel pre)
Mindprint Envoice (single ‘channel strip’ type pre - find the “channel” section too noisy to engage with acoustic guitar, so just use the pre. V. good with SM57 and electric guitars though)

Cables:
Standard 30’ mic cables from music shop & smaller patch cables

Guitar:
Maton Messiah - solid wood, top of the line Australian made acoustic dreadnought with cutaway. Can’t reference it with similar Taylor / Martin / Gibson for you but it cost $4000 and it’s a beautiful sounding instrument.

I have experimented with and read widely on mic positioning both on this BBS and elsewhere on the web (every thread here on the topic for the last 2 years). My experiments are based on the polar patterns of the mics I own, so haven’t done things involving figure 8s etc. I’m also aware that dreadnought guitars are often not the favoured recording instruments because of the volume. I don’t believe that further experimentation with positioning is going to help - trust me, I’ve tried lots of stuff.

Everything I record, with every position, every mic, every combination sounds (in solo acoustic mode) like there’s a “honky, metallic, nasty” resonance to it that I can’t EQ out and renders the sound not quite good enough.

If I Travis pick quickly, play the same things twice, hard left and right, I can almost get away with it. I presume this is because of the short duration of the notes not allowing the resonance to develop - however slower pieces have no chance.

I record in my house, which has carpets and plaster walls and 8’ plaster ceiling and garage (lately) which has three brick walls, concrete floor, and 1 plaster wall and 8’ plaster ceiling but is a much more “live” setting.

I live in Australia and can access most of the major brands of microphone (Neumann, Audio Technica, Oktava, Shure etc.) but not all of them, however pres are generally more limited to the more widely distributed brands - ie. I doubt I’d find a Great River, for instance, over here, but I can get Avalons, Focusrites, TC Electronics etc etc.

What should I do?

While not rich, I’m now at the point of having spent so much time and so much money anyway that I really don’t care anymore what the cost is to fix the problem, I’ll work it out somehow. This is my last throw of the dice with gear, though. I will sell anything that gets superseded or has no end use.

I’d appreciate any and all input on any or all aspects of my set up from those of you with experience recording solo acoustic guitar (that stays solo), or solid experience with mics / pres etc. My personal theory at this stage is that it’s my microphone collection that is the weak link, but I’m also aware of the rep that 603s have here as an acoustic guitar mic, so I wonder. I can’t change the guitar or the house, but everything else is up for discussion.

Sorry for the lengthy post but I wanted to give you all the maximum amount of information. I know nothing about recording except what I’ve learnt here and on the net over the last 4 years, but have recorded 2 full albums before I discovered the joys of microphones…. ie. I’m not a newbie, but I have no formal training either. Please also tell me if you think I’m wasting money upgrading things, that what I want to do is not possible in my environment. I just want my guitar to sound like my guitar - big, lush & beautiful.

Thanks for reading.
 
I know we've been through this before, but I just can't believe you can't get an excellent guitar sound with your existing recording equipment. And just because you have a $4000 guitar that sounds great live doesn't mean it records well. Dreadnaughts are designed so the note fundamentals (mainly the bass notes) dominate the sound and can be heard when playing with other loud instruments. Indeed, they produce an awesome and cannon-like sound. But microphones don't always record that dreadnaught sound well, especially for fingerstyle music where dynamics and subtle overtones make a big difference in artistic expression and where the complex overtones produced by small bodied guitars sound so sweet.

My advice is to spend $100 or so and go into a pro studio and try your guitar out with some of their high-end mics and preamps? Maybe this would give you a better idea of if your guitar records well and with what equipment. And it could save you $2000 or more on equipment that isn't going to make a different in the end.
 
If anything is weak, it's the preamp, but seriously, that equipment should be fine...
 
i have a similar problem. everything i record sounds good and i am quite happy with it....exept for djembe. i cant get a good lead djembe tone so my solution is to go to a "big" studio to dub those parts than bring it back home and continue as if nothing happened. if you are not concerned with $$ than i would do that and in the meantime expiriment with what you have to get it better.
 
I agree with tdukex - go to a studio - take your equipment if you can, and record with it in their environment. Then record with their best setup. This should tell you if it's your equipment or your room - which is what I'm betting it is.
 
If what you're experiencing are resonance problems . . . then I'm afraid it's very likely your guitar or your room, or some combination of both. Perhaps your particular room just doesn't flatter your particular guitar. It happens.

Tdukex brings up some oustanding ideas. Just because your guitar is awesome and cost you a fortune doesn't mean it's going to give you the recorded sound you're looking for.

In general, mics just 'hear' the guitar differently than your ears do (and mic pres just amplify the signal), so although it might be worth a try to test out 100 different mics, it will still be a crap shoot.
 
Good ideas and thanks....

Further supplementary question - I'm aware that dreadnaughts aren't regarded as the best recording instruments, but didn't know precisely why until tdukex posted (thanks!) - so what IS the ideal instrument for recording? Maybe I should try to get hold of one of them on a temporary basis (I only have dreadnaughts of various qualities) and try that to see what effect that has?

This whole thing puzzles me too because there are so many people on this board who rave about the 603 in particular. But not they way I'm using it, obviously!
 
Armistice said:
I have been struggling for a year or so now attempting to record fingerstyle acoustic guitar with my home studio setup. I’m after a level of quality that will allow me to multi-track acoustic guitars (only) and have them sounding very good. My equipment and extensive experimenting to date have not yielded the sound I’m searching for.

I am able to get a recorded acoustic sound that works well with louder, rockier mixes featuring drums, bass, electric guitar etc. I’m not able to get a good enough sound that will stand up on its own, so my thought is that maybe the gear I’m using in the signal path just ain’t good enough to do this.

Here’s what I have:

Yamaha AW4416 recorder (not the problem, I presume)

Mics:
Rode NT2
Rode NT5s
MXL603s
Shure SM57 (not used on acoustic, just electric amped guitar, included for complete picture)

Pres:
Presonus MP20 (dual channel pre)
Mindprint Envoice (single ‘channel strip’ type pre - find the “channel” section too noisy to engage with acoustic guitar, so just use the pre. V. good with SM57 and electric guitars though)

Cables:
Standard 30’ mic cables from music shop & smaller patch cables

Guitar:
Maton Messiah - solid wood, top of the line Australian made acoustic dreadnought with cutaway. Can’t reference it with similar Taylor / Martin / Gibson for you but it cost $4000 and it’s a beautiful sounding instrument.

I have experimented with and read widely on mic positioning both on this BBS and elsewhere on the web (every thread here on the topic for the last 2 years). My experiments are based on the polar patterns of the mics I own, so haven’t done things involving figure 8s etc. I’m also aware that dreadnought guitars are often not the favoured recording instruments because of the volume. I don’t believe that further experimentation with positioning is going to help - trust me, I’ve tried lots of stuff.

Everything I record, with every position, every mic, every combination sounds (in solo acoustic mode) like there’s a “honky, metallic, nasty” resonance to it that I can’t EQ out and renders the sound not quite good enough.

If I Travis pick quickly, play the same things twice, hard left and right, I can almost get away with it. I presume this is because of the short duration of the notes not allowing the resonance to develop - however slower pieces have no chance.

I record in my house, which has carpets and plaster walls and 8’ plaster ceiling and garage (lately) which has three brick walls, concrete floor, and 1 plaster wall and 8’ plaster ceiling but is a much more “live” setting.

I live in Australia and can access most of the major brands of microphone (Neumann, Audio Technica, Oktava, Shure etc.) but not all of them, however pres are generally more limited to the more widely distributed brands - ie. I doubt I’d find a Great River, for instance, over here, but I can get Avalons, Focusrites, TC Electronics etc etc.

What should I do?

While not rich, I’m now at the point of having spent so much time and so much money anyway that I really don’t care anymore what the cost is to fix the problem, I’ll work it out somehow. This is my last throw of the dice with gear, though. I will sell anything that gets superseded or has no end use.

I’d appreciate any and all input on any or all aspects of my set up from those of you with experience recording solo acoustic guitar (that stays solo), or solid experience with mics / pres etc. My personal theory at this stage is that it’s my microphone collection that is the weak link, but I’m also aware of the rep that 603s have here as an acoustic guitar mic, so I wonder. I can’t change the guitar or the house, but everything else is up for discussion.

Sorry for the lengthy post but I wanted to give you all the maximum amount of information. I know nothing about recording except what I’ve learnt here and on the net over the last 4 years, but have recorded 2 full albums before I discovered the joys of microphones…. ie. I’m not a newbie, but I have no formal training either. Please also tell me if you think I’m wasting money upgrading things, that what I want to do is not possible in my environment. I just want my guitar to sound like my guitar - big, lush & beautiful.

Thanks for reading.
Armistice,I have the AW4416 as well and also use the mxl603's.
I have noticed a lot of the same problems that you mention.
When using them in a stereo pair,they seem to lose that metal
ic edge with some distance.With lowered tunings,they seem to do well about 3" to 6" away.
Any way, when you find the right mic and pre let me know!
 
Armistice said:
Good ideas and thanks....

Further supplementary question - I'm aware that dreadnaughts aren't regarded as the best recording instruments, but didn't know precisely why until tdukex posted (thanks!) - so what IS the ideal instrument for recording? Maybe I should try to get hold of one of them on a temporary basis (I only have dreadnaughts of various qualities) and try that to see what effect that has?

This whole thing puzzles me too because there are so many people on this board who rave about the 603 in particular. But not they way I'm using it, obviously!
Small bodied "parlor guitars" seem to have the most even response, in my experience.
 
Get out of the garage!

It might sound "better" to your ears, but you might look into some room treatment for the carpeted room. Reverb should really be added later.

Also, (and you may have tried this) here's a technique that should give you something a lot closer to what you're used to hearing.

Put the mic about shoulder-to-ear high. Point the capsule at the floor.

With headphones on, position yourself with the capsule a few inches behind the bridge. This should give you a very good sized sweetspot, and with phones you can dial in your tone very quickly.

"honky, metallic, nasty resonance" also sounds like a feedback loop problem.

How are you monitoring your dubs? Could be you're introducing phase problems into your signal path when dubbing.
 
Armi,

Harvey's comment about parlour guitars is probably worth taking on board.

See if you can get you hands on an EM525C, the slimline version of the 325...........they definitely have a clarity or brightness to their recorded sound as opposed to my ECW80. Another Maton which I like is the slimline Stage Maple.

If I had things finished here and some bugs out of the system, I'd say drive up the F3 and see what we could do, but at the rate things are going, it could be a while yet before I am in a position to take in any outside recording work.................but you could get to play with some of the toys in my pic here...........http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?s=&threadid=109077


:cool:
 
Considering your gear is not too bad, most of the posters here will suggest changes in mic placement and trouble shooting room problems. I will take the other course, throwing money at the problem. I had a very similar problem to yours going into a Roland VS1824CD with a Taylor 710CE. For me, the simple solution was- One AKG C414B-ULS on the 12rh fret, bass cut, going into an Avalon AD2022. Yeah, it didn't come cheap, but I got the lovely clean guitar sound I was looking for.-Richie
 
Thanks for various thoughts... including the AKG and Avalon one - just priced them over here - RRP of $7500 combined. Yikes! Didn't think it'd be that much...

Also chatted to man at local music shop who suggested a few things re position in room and monitoring, so I'll play around them before whipping out the credit card, methinks.

Ausrock - might burn a copy of the offending sound onto CD and send it up to you - have a listen on your system and see what you think. Maybe it's all in my head - losing perspective a little, I think.

Cheers all.
 
No wuckin' furrys..............you still have my address?

:cool:
 
Aus

Pretty sure it's in my PMs somewhere, if not I'll send you one and ask.

Had another listen tonight, plugged the system in through my stereo rather than monitors and it sounded less harsh. Did a bit more EQing - found I was boosting mids and highs a little, strangely - I think I'm overcompensating for my dislike of the sound and aiming the mics too high, more towards the bass strings, which, incidentally, sound OK - it's mainly the straight steel ones rather than the wound ones that I don't like the sound of. Who knows, maybe you'll like it. Think I need a different perspective, that's for sure - been working on this damn tune forever, it seems.

Will be next week at this stage, getting my girlfriend over to "engineer" on Wednesday so will have to work on it from then!

Actually going halfway up the F3 on Saturday, now you mention it - a party at Ourimbah on the Central Coast. Been asked to bring the guitar to entertain - be a relief just to play and sing and not worry about recording!

Cheers
 
hmmm - it is pretty easy to get away with inexpensive mics and preamps on acoustic instruments in a busy mix, but every freakin problem in the signal chain comes glaring out in your face when tracking a solo acoustic instrument. i do chamber music and ensembles, with plenty of solo instrumentation, such as violin, flute, harps, etc, so i have been through this situation. i would have to say that to get a spectacular acoustic guitar recording, you are going to have to get better mics and better preamps. the first thing you should look for in a good mic is a flat response curve. small capsule condensers are going to do a better job than LD mics due to better transient and off-axis response. i use pairs of schoeps cmc64s, akg c480s, AT4051s and DPA 4061s. any of those will do an excellent job for what you are doing, but probably the best bang for buck is the little DPA 4060 or 4061 - they are miniature omnis and are superb on acoustic guitar.

for preamps, i finally had to break down and buy a millennia media HV3D (8 channels) - probably out of your price range, but impossible to beat and you wont every have to upgrade again. the great river pres are also excellent, as are the buzz audio, and the john hardy. if all of those are out of range, the only less expensive decent choice for a clean solid preamp is the FMR RNP. from my testing, literally every inexpensive preamp displayed a graininess in the upper mids around 5-8k, including the mackies, the sytek, even the RNP (i wont even comment on pres like the ART, behringer, or anything that has a starved-plate tube circuit stuck onto a cheap SS opamp circuit), and that just is not acceptable for chamber and classical music or any serious work - again, while you may not notice this kind of thing in a busy rock mix, it sticks out like a sore thumb in critical aplications. but for the money, the RNP is pretty good, and serviceable in many applications. it is not in the same league as the HV3, the GR, etc, however, and if you really want to do it right, find a way to buy a good preamp.

your yamaha should have adequate converters, so i wouldnt worry about that right now, but eliminate every other thing from your signal chain - just guitar>mic(s)> preamp>recorder. do not use any compression going in. best of luck.
 
Ooh baby! Thought you had sticker shock before? The Schoeps are the high priced spread indeed, and get rave reviews. I confess they are a bit rich for my current blood. I don't agree that SD mic(s) are automatically better for recording acoustic guitar than LD's. There are styles of guitar that work with one or the other a little better, but some wicked guitar tracks indeed have been recorded with large diaphragm mics. I prefer to have both options. For bang for buck, the Josephson C-42's at about $1000 a pair are highly regarded, and the price will look better after you price those Schoeps! Whatever works for you. I got the sound I was looking for with a single C414 in the right place.- Richie
 
richie - the josephson series 4 mics are pretty nice, and an excellent choice for acoustic guitar. they are fairly colored mics, however, rather like the little neumann km184s (i've been through 3 pairs of those), though perhaps a tad smoother in the top and not quite as rich in the lower mids. the schoeps are worth every penny, trust me - it is sort of like buying a leica camera - you just cant go wrong. again, remember i am coming from a chamber music/classical perspective, and am a confirmed microphone nutcase.
 
Armistice said:
Did a bit more EQing - found I was boosting mids and highs a little

try cutting the lows instead of boosting the other freqs. How is your room treated?

Alec
 
The room isn't treated, and I'll admit this is one area I just don't understand. I'm playing relatively soft, fingerstyle guitar in the middle of a 6m x 6m carpeted room (lounge room with sofa, curtains, the usual furniture - the sound isn't exactly ricocheting back from the plaster walls as far as I can hear - why is the room such an issue? I would have thought that this large, relatively dead space wouldn't cause any problems for this exact issue - keen to be educated though if anyone can fill me in.

I'm actually taking my guitar to a high end audio shop on Friday afternoon - they have Neumann, Schoeps (although I don't want to even ask the price!), AKG 840-something (can't remember), AKG C 414 as well as Rode NT5 for comparison - I'll also take a 603 with me. No Josephsons though, haven't seen them except in catalogues over here. In terms of preamps they have Avalon, TL Audio, Drawmer, Focusrite and few others. I'll see if the sales guy can get me a decent sound. He's offer to drag a few units upstairs to their studio area/room so I can demo them. He was keen on a single tube Avalon channel strip unit whose model number escapes me at the moment. Very expensive though. Wasn't a 2022, which they don't have in stock. Only Behringer thing I saw in the shop was a DI.

I figure in about an hour there of A/B-ing various combos I'll know whether it's the guitar, the room, or my equipment.

I have put these mics in every possible position and while results vary there's still an underlying tone which I don't like. If you could see my EQ curves, you'd know there was something real wrong here Lemon Tree!

Let you know what I do, and thanks for all the comments and tips, as usual, guys.

Cheers.
 
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