Thinking about outboard gear

[jtienhaara]

SonicAlbert -- this is good, this is the first time I've ever run into somebody who has 1) done this hybrid stuff and 2) is willing to talk about it! Cheers for that.

Yes, I mean parallel bussing. Isn't that and the term double bussing pretty much interchangeable?

Undoubtedly a "to-may-toes" / "to-mah-toes" thing. I had just never come across the expression "double bussing", and was just making sure I understood what you meant.

You have to calculate the latency for the entire signal path to analog, including the interface and any digital mixer and then the DA converters.

Not quite so complicated. Just record a sine wave (at e.g. 1000 Hz), then play it back ITB and through each plugin and plugout you'll be using and record each one to its own track, one at a time.

Once you've done that, calculate the difference in time between each new recording and the *slowest* of the plugouts. For each track, that is your latency delay compensation. You can reuse the same latency delay compensation thereafter until the end of time, and it will still sound good!

Incidentally though I don't use very many plugins, so I know mine well and I don't swap them in and out all the time. I find plugins tiresome and draining and anti-creative, so once I've found a good one I stick to it, prec-calculated latency compensation and all.

I don't have the benefit of a UAD-1 (equivalent to a medium priced outboard effects unit in some ways -- even though the compressions is undoubtedly much cooler in the UAD-1 than in most outboard effects units). Also I have a very static setup, one of the niceties of using the DSP-based CreamWare cards.

Nevertheless setting up delay plugins for each mix is nothing compared to moving tracks around to compensate for latency, in my books!

Speaking purely for myself, I've found that simplifying the process in certain ways makes it go a lot more naturally and better..... Maybe I'm not just a good enough mixer, which is highly likely.

I'm sure you're a far more experienced and accomplished mixer than me, but I have the same goals as you -- simplify, and make it sound natural and better! -- we've just arrived at different conclusions. My mixes take a *lot* of time (chalk that up to lack of experience or what have you). Recall is vital for me and is the reason I moved to ITB. Everything I use now -- analogue compressor settings being pretty much the only exception -- is recallable. This, to me, is *much* more natural than the mixing process I had when I wrote down every bloody EQ, fader, aux, etc setting on my outboard mixer, so that I wouldn't lose my place mixing a song during the interim while I recorded a jam session etc.

But to each his own! And for what it's worth I would love to have you mix something I've worked on, some day, SonicAlbert. It would be an honour for me. I've never heard your mixes, but I've read your posts and I just know I would like what you do.

Cheers,

Johann

 

[SonicAlbert]

Thank you, I'm very very flattered. However, I must say that I don't consider myself a mixer, I'm a composer and musician that mixes decent demos and low budget type stuff, but hires a "real" mix engineer for the paying gigs!

I understand your system for measuring latency now, but for me that would still be a heck of a lot of distraction when mixing. I do a lot of experimenting. I'll try something and then be "no I don't like that, let's try this". The I don't like that and try something else. I do this with both hardware and plugins. It would be truly hateful to have to mess around with a delay plugin every time I tried something new.

However, I do appreciate the advantages of recall, and that was the primary reason I had some hesitation about going analog again. I did get addicted to recall, and for good reason--it's great. My current setup has partial recall. Anything in the DAW is obviously completely recallable. So I do as much there as possible. Panning, volume moves, any of the few plugins I use, are recallable. Likewise, I route the Daw tracks through my DM-24, which is also recallable. I'll typically save a preset for each song in the DM-24. My midi synths/samplers are what goes into the channel inputs of the Speck Xtramix's. So those settings on the Speck's are not recallable, i.e. volume and panning, fx sends and bussing. That's pretty much the only thing that isn't however. Since my midi gear is sequenced, anything that can be automated in the sequencer is. So a lot of the synth/sampler stuff is recallable as well.

My goal was to get as much recallability as possible within this hybrid setup.

One thing I noticed immediately when going back to analog was the noise floor. Digital is just so quiet. Now I have to deal with noise floor and gain staging issues again and that is kind of a drag, but I guess I'm used to it. Still beats having to fight tape hiss!

I know the whole business of having to write down settings for analog gear. I don't do that as much as I should, but the best place I've found to do it is in the "comments" or "notes" window of the DAW itself. That way it stays with the track and there isn't another piece of paper to file somewhere.

 

[xstatic]

I do hybrid mixes quite often. Maybe Steinberg has just spoiled me, but I don't have to even think about latency. Cubase does it for you

 

[scottboyher]

Yes, I mean parallel bussing. Isn't that and the term double bussing pretty much interchangeable? I'm actually curious to know if they are different in any way.

When you say you calculate the latency once and then you don't have to again, I don't really get that. You have to calculate the latency for the entire signal path to analog, including the interface and any digital mixer and then the DA converters. Then also calculate the various plugin latencies. Each plugin has different latency. And then what if you change the buffer for some reason? That's going to change all the calculations. If you are popping many different plugins in and out on various tracks that's a lot of delay calculations.

My goal is to *totally* eliminate that kind of mathematics from the process. Mixing should be ears, listening, taste and judgement. Speaking purely for myself, I've found that simplifying the process in certain ways makes it go a lot more naturally and better.

I used to have my studio setup with all digital routing and processing. I used the same outboard, but patched digitally. It was amazing the routing I could do, everything being recalled and all that. I could put any signal anywhere, it was great in a theoretical sort of way. However, I got nothing done. It seemed like all I did was troubleshoot and deal with getting the signal from here to there, and deal with latency issues with bussing.

I tore that setup out, bought my Speck XtraMix's and severly limited my routing options. I'm back to analog patchbays, analog mixers, analog outboard, fx processing outboard is routed analog now not digitally. It is actually faster to work with, much more productive. It also sounds better in the sense that mixes gel a lot easier. When mixing in the box it is so easy to just get wrapped up in tweaking this plugin and that plugin, trying to get it to gel or sound right.

Those issues just go away for the most part in analog. Maybe I'm not just a good enough mixer, which is highly likely. I'm strictly a good demo mixer, I hire pros to do my "real" mixes. Although my recording engineer does seem to "borrow" my ideas from time to time.

Anyway, I've dealt with latency and I just can't stand it. I don't trust the process, and I think that even with all the calculations for latency, if you were to double buss some tracks you'd probably still get phasing when putting them together in analog.

I went through the same thing exactly! I did the turn around thing back to the analog mixing/patchbays and such. Much happier now!

 

[SonicAlbert]

I went through the same thing exactly! I did the turn around thing back to the analog mixing/patchbays and such. Much happier now!

What equipment are you using now, and how do you have it set up?

 

[skipwave]

Does anyone do passive summing outside of a DAW? If so, what do you use?

I don't have a mixer, since I've been doing it in the box with a MOTU 896. I'd like to go back out through my outboard gear, then to a passive summing box. Any insight on this would greatly appreciated.

 

[scottboyher]

What equipment are you using now, and how do you have it set up?

Well I don't have anything as fancy as the XtraMix but.

I have a Yammy 16/4 and I run everything to patchbays and use outboard gear 95% of the time now. I still do most of the mixing in the box but most of everything else is done outside.

I didn't like tweaking a compressor or verb in the box... Not my kind of thing.. I did it for a long time, though, before I decided to go back to analog..

I just like the control of hands on knob rather than typing in a number. I believe I am getting better sound out of my outboard gear than I was with plugins.. I am sure the plugins could server their purpose well but I am not willing to take the time to figure out ever-single option. Look at all the tweaks that can be made with Waves Compressor and then look at the RNC... I can relate better to the RNC and that increases my sound quality as well as my "want to record" attitude.

Just my personal preference..