Think yours is small?

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Howdy everyone, well it seems I have the smallest bedroom "studio" I have seen here, so I have to use every available square inch and surface. Including using a metal truss over my console for mic booms! Thought I would share this for those of you who think yours is small. Bask in your ocean of room

Here was my original layout and design. No acoustics yet. Fabric covered 703 panels go in next week, and the aluminum extrusion diffuser goes up in 2 weeks. This is all temp till march of next year.(Actually, they are for my new studio, but I'll go ahead and put em up in here for looks, and maybe they WILL work here

http://home.rcsis.com/beachchic/osage2.jpg>
http://home.rcsis.com/beachchic/osage3.jpg>

Heres some pics of the tape machine cabinet(the old closet) Just finished wiring the second MSR-16. These pics SUCK cause everything is gloss black laminate and smoke plexiglass. Digital grey scales SUCK just as digital audio. OPPS! IGNOR that, I was making a joke, I use digital somewhat too!

http://home.rcsis.com/beachchic/tape1.jpg>
http://home.rcsis.com/beachchic/tape2.jpg>
http://home.rcsis.com/beachchic/tape3.jpg>
http://home.rcsis.com/beachchic/tape4.jpg>
http://home.rcsis.com/beachchic/tape5.jpg>
fitz

 

[longsoughtfor]

HI Rick - the tape cabinet looks cool. I'm interested in the extruded diffusor. How are you making that?

Kevin.

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello Kevin, thanks for the reply, I didn't really think anybody would be interested. I've still got two drawers in the bottom of the cabinet to mount. The stuff I build seems never to get finished I'm always altering it or something. But I LOVE to design and build. Now the diffuser, thats pretty interesting. I don't want to say too much about it untill I get it finished. Its a rather unique idea, and will look TOTALLY mindblowing when its done. Big too. Its a rear wall RPG that is vertical and returns on the ceiling towards the front of the control room. It will have 6 periods I believe(I'm not done designing it but I have the extrusions already and they are absolutely beautiful. Long too. I'll post a pic of the extrusions themself tonight. Gotta run now. Thanks for the interest Kevin. I don't get much response here, so every one is a delight to me.
fitz

 

[John Sayers]

that's an interesting idea for a diffusor Rick, I'll be interested in seeing the finished product

cheers
JOhn

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Wow guys, John Sayers responded!

Holy cow! Hello Mr. Sayer, well the idea maybe interesting, the application of the math is whats got me at a crossroads though. I've been studying Mr. Everests book. But like knightfly says, for every solution theres 5 more questions Heres something I found on the net that has really got my attention. Some of the extrusion profiles(1000's) would work very well for fabrication of these type of ideas. My hope is to design the final extrusion profile for snap togeather kits. Many of these extrusions are designed to snap on to a backing plate that is mounted to a substrate, and then the finish extrusion snaps on to it, leaving a surface with no fasteners exposed. Very cool.

http://www.aee.salford.ac.uk/research/acoustics_1/cox_t/arc_cox_abfusser.htm
It seems this directly relates to what knightfly and yourself were talking about on a previous thread. At least, I see it as a way to maybe build a diffuser that acts like the large deep planks in a slat absorber. Thats the reason for the aluminum. No heavy planks, but rigidity and variable profiles.

What I DON"T understand is the math, and or how it relates to room size and or geometry. Wish I had paid attention in algebra instead of daydreaming about stratocasters!! But this set of designs are really interesting to me, and I hope I can really use it if its applicable. BTW, what I am building currently is for use in my future studio. Not really for my current "woom". Thankyou very much for the response John. You have become one of the few professionals whom I trust and respect. Your work speaks for itself and you are a gentleman.
fitz

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

This is not the diffuser...

Hello gents, here are some pics of the extrusions themself. This is not the finished product, only the materials. And these are only a very small portion of what is available and these are in neutral colors. They come in 500 colors, and 20 finishes.
This will at least illustrate what I am using. The actual diffuser period profile is not determined yet, but tonight I will post a psuedo section of it to illustrate the concept. The actual well widths and depth analysis is beyond the scope of my experience. I share this now, because I want to give back what I get from here. John, your sharing of knowledge and experience is a godsend for people here. Me especially. I admire you.
fitz
http://home.rcsis.com/beachchic/xtru1.jpg>
http://home.rcsis.com/beachchic/xtru2.jpg>
http://home.rcsis.com/beachchic/xtru3.jpg>
http://home.rcsis.com/beachchic/xtru4.jpg>
http://home.rcsis.com/beachchic/xtru5.jpg>
http://home.rcsis.com/beachchic/xtru6.jpg>

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

PS, I use these extrusions in many different applications. The previous pics of the tape machine cabinet does not show them well, although there are 10 different extrusions in use on it. From the casing wall trim(looks too cool) to the pull on the smoke plex cover.
Heres a close up of a couple of other uses. I used 6 of them on my console and upper equipment rackmount cabinet. There are many, many unusual chemetal laminates, hardware, plex things that i use to fabricate, cause I am a hardware/material freak
Heres a few. Now don't laugh too loud at the dust, and cobwebs, this town sucks for it.
And I am forever cleaning, but alas..... And yes the pics suck too!
fitz
http://home.rcsis.com/beachchic/xtru7.jpg>
http://home.rcsis.com/beachchic/xtru8.jpg>
http://home.rcsis.com/beachchic/xtru9.jpg>
http://home.rcsis.com/beachchic/xtru10.jpg>
http://home.rcsis.com/beachchic/xtru11.jpg>
http://home.rcsis.com/beachchic/xtru12.jpg>
http://home.rcsis.com/beachchic/xtru13.jpg>

 

[Chris Tondreau]

maybe mine is smaller??

We're doing some "room shuffling" in the next couple of months, and my new studio will be somewhat smaller than what I have now. No problem.... I'll get rid of a desk and a bookcase that I don't use. That, and the fact that I won't have to work around a large wardrobe in the corner, will pretty much even things out.

So.... I have roughly 11 feet by 7 feet, 3 inches.

eeesh.....

Fortunately, MOST of my work in there is solo, but occasionally, I get others in to record stuff too.

My first problem, (and I'll try to post a pic of what I have now to give you a better idea) is where to put my "gear table." I have a counter top that I liberated during a minor kitchen renovation that is about 8 feet, 3 inches. I COULD cut a foot off, and put it across the length of the entire 7'3" wall. This would leave me with a work/tracking space of roughly 7'3"x9'. OR.... I could put it along the length of one wall, causing it to come almost flush with the doorway along one wall, leaving me with a work/tracking area of roughly 11'x 5'3".

Doing simple math, the first option gives me more area, and is a little bit better in terms of (is it the Nyquist theory, or is that something else...) not having your room dimensions being equal or exact multiples of each other. (with all sorts of stuff along one wall, and reflecting sound from a distance of roughly two feet from the wall, it would be SORT of like shortening the room, wouldn't it?)

On my gear table, I have my computer monitor, speakers, printer, a couple of small shelves for stuff, mics, etc. Underneath, I have my guitar amp, keyboard amp, computer tower, basket of cables, a subwoofer..... It's quite crowded, so it's not too much unlike making the room smaller, is it?

I'll post a couple of pics as I get a chance... this might become its own thread

Chris

 

[Chris Tondreau]

Sorry.... just to add....

I DO have the option of running some long cables into another room that is fairly large for tracking, but ideally, I'd rather not. I'm thinking if I had to SQUEEZE a drum kit in there, or something....

The proposed studio room IS carpeted, and I'm going to go to a goodwill type store and see if I can get some (hopefully complementary, if not matching) heavy curtains to deaden the room a bit. Even a small room like mine can benefit from this, right?

What might some good materials for this be? Would I be totally wasting my time trying to track drums in a room of this dimension, regardless of configuration?

Chris

 

[knightfly]

Chris, small rooms are tough - but the LAST thing you want to do is suck all the highs out by using materials (like carpet and drapes) that just work at high freqs.

If your room has an 8 foot ceiling (you didn't say) the modal distribution won't be bad at all - what this means is you shouldn't need any specially tuned absorbers to get it to sound OK. The lowest freq that room will support is 51 hZ, which will be too strong due to bass buildup in small rooms - Some 3" insulation board, such as OC 703 or Knauf board on the wall behind your speakers, with the speakers pulled out from the wall some, will help cut that down. Do NOT put your speakers at a point vertically where they are equidistant from floor and ceiling - you will get a null at the first harmonic of that distance (70 hZ, assuming 8' ceiling) then a peak @ the second harmonic (140 hZ) another null at the 3rd harmonic, etc - either put the speakers below 3'6" or above 4'6", and if they're not at ear level find a way to tilt them so they aim right at your ears, with your head being the 3rd point of an equilateral triangle (speakers being the other two points)

Equipment location should be such that you have a SYMMETRICAL listening field. If your left speaker is 18" from the left wall, the right speaker should be 18" from the right wall, etc - Your room is too short to get away with using distance as a diffusor, so the rear of the listening field should have some diffusion - about half the rear wall would benefit from something like book shelves, with various books, knic-nacks, etc, to break things up. (Also gives you a place for those things to be, rather than underfoot)

For a short course on absorber placement, go here and read at least step 4. Even if you don't get their software, there is a lot of good info on this page, check it out -

http://www.etfacoustic.com/demoroom.all.html

Another good site for free advice (just don't buy any of their stuff) is here - best place to go if you don't have years and $$ for books...

http://www.customaudio.freeserve.co.uk/techfrmset.htm

Hope this helps get you started - if I miss any further requests for help, don't hesitate to PM me, it'll show up in my email. Some of the first things I'd need to know are whether you rent or own, how much you can do to the room, what your level of building expertise is, what tools you have available, and an approximate budget - without these, we're BOTH wasting our time... Steve

BTW, Rick, I was NOT ignoring you, and I RARELY miss a chance to NOT ignore you - been in small rooms myself, couldn't decide whether to rip off my Clark Kent disguise or just try to make noise without bumping my elbow (OWWWEEEE... )

Also, happy/safe holidays to you and yours, and all here at HR... Steve

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

BTW, Rick, I was NOT ignoring you, and I RARELY miss a chance to NOT ignore you

Alright Steve, cool, I appreciate every single one of your posts! Your very helpfull Steve, and damn I wish I knew as much about this shit as you do. Feel like a damn dunce sometimes. BTW, Merry Christmas to you and your family. Hope your holiday is wonderful.
Steve, I dug out my Everest book the other day. Holy Moly. I should have left it in the closet Its like opening pandoras box You hit it on the head about more questions. I'm glad SOMEONE makes sense out of this shit, cause I sure aint yet! I did read the section on diffusion again, and just like last time, either my brain has an absorbsion coeffecient of zero or my skull is a total knowledge defractor! Ha! Anyway, again, my hats off to you and I'm all ears for your posts!! I learn something from each of them.
fitz

 

[Chris Tondreau]

If your room has an 8 foot ceiling (you didn't say) the modal distribution won't be bad at all - what this means is you shouldn't need any specially tuned absorbers to get it to sound OK. The lowest freq that room will support is 51 hZ, which will be too strong due to bass buildup in small rooms

- about half the rear wall would benefit from something like book shelves, with various books, knic-nacks, etc, to break things up. (Also gives you a place for those things to be, rather than underfoot)

Some of the first things I'd need to know are whether you rent or own, how much you can do to the room, what your level of building expertise is, what tools you have available, and an approximate budget - without these, we're BOTH wasting our time... Steve

Hey Steve.... man, thanks! You really sound like you know your stuff! I understand most of what you said, and it all makes sense, except for the bit that I left quoted in the first paragraph. BTW, the ceilings are just shy of 9'. (like, 8'10")

That would mean that I shouldn't place my monitors within, say, six inches or so of 4'5" from the ceiling or floor, right?

The said back wall that the listening monitors would point out towards, I need to be a little careful with. The light switch is on that wall (though fortunately not near the middle), and there is a bifold door on the one side of that wall (about the first two feet, opening to the hallway) that complicate things. Given this, would it be safe to say that I'd be looking at some sort of absorbant panel, like you were describing? (Those links will be quite helpful, BTW.... thanks!)

We own the house, so technically, I can do with it whatever I want. For practical purposes, though, I'm not interested in any re-construction. My level of building expertise maxes out somewhere just beyond installing ceiling fans.... Perhaps that's due to my equally sad lack of tools. (I have screwdrivers, hammers, a cordless drill, hacksaw.... that kind of stuff. Absolutely nothing fancy ) My approximate budget is pretty sorry too.... maybe $100 US or so....

Thanks again, and Merry Christmas to you too!

Chris

 

[knightfly]

Hey Fitz, know what you mean about the diffusion thing - I'm feeling like I need to go back to JC and take the higher math I didn't think I'd need - typed in "quadratic residue" on one of the search engines last week, and thought my head was gonna explode! Holy crap, what a deep river that was to try and swim - not to mention the piranhas, crocs, anacondas, and sharp rocks...

Anyway, it'll be a while before I get wrapped around THAT one well enough to even pretend to help anyone else. Think I'll stick to bookshelves full of crap for a while...

Hey Chris - tight budget, no tools, gotta rethink this one for a bit - probably after Christmas, family stuff and all... BTW, could you re-post a quote of exactly what part you did NOT understand? I'll try to re-phrase it, or explain deeper... Steve

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

what a deep river that was to try and swim - not to mention the piranhas, crocs, anacondas, and sharp rocks...

Heheheheheheheh!!!!
Hey steve, you still up?

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Ok Steve, I need to ask you something. Look at my plan view at the beginning of this thread, ok. Now, I never intended for this CLARK KENT room to be a studio. It just sort of evolved. As you can see, there is a narrow band of wall between the door and my tape machine cabinet. And its not even centered in the room. Thats the ONLY place I could put a diffuser, even if I knew how to build it correctly. Even then it would stick out at least 12" to do anything.But what I don't understand is the distance thing. Seems like since this wall is only 3 1/2 fucking feet from the back of my head, there isn't ANYTHING that would solve the reflection time issue except absorbsion, you know, the phase cancellation and fucking up what I'm hearing thing. Ha! You know what I mean. Do you really think a diffuser would help? I mean this room sucks.ARGGGGRRRRR I am going to put up some 703 above my upper equipment cabinet and behind my speakers, and maybe where my rearwall meets the ceiling. But as far as making this monitoring position viable, it seems hopeless. I mean, listening is one thing, but mixing....ha, what a joke.(if I ever get to that point....) When Everest says small rooms, I don't think he was even considering one the size I have. I think he would say, "good god man,are you serious, theres no way" ha! Anyway, I can't wait to move to OREGON. Should be there sometime in the spring. Hey Steve, whats it like up where you live? Were going back up to do some more looking around soon. I had a job offer in Salem, but I couldn't leave yet. Haven't been up that far to see. Soon though. Your in Scio, right? Well, I might be a neighbor. Ha, I can hear you now, "oh lord......" Just kiddin. Well, ignor my ramblings, its late, and tomorrow is Christmas so I can sleep in.
OHBOYOHBOYOHBOY!!!
fitz

 

[Chris Tondreau]

Hey Chris - tight budget, no tools, gotta rethink this one for a bit - probably after Christmas, family stuff and all... BTW, could you re-post a quote of exactly what part you did NOT understand? I'll try to re-phrase it, or explain deeper... Steve

The part I didn't understand.... "The lowest freq that room will support is 51 hZ, which will be too strong due to bass buildup in small rooms "

If there is an idea that you have that would be really effective that might require me to buy/borrow/rent some tools and spend a bit of money, I'm certainly interested. The only thing I can't do, just because of ability, time, motivation, money, etc. is get involved in a "really big project." I have a room to work with, and can't get involved in any reconstruction for the above reasons. I'm just trying to make the best I can with what I have. I WILL re-budget, though, if it would mean a significant pay-off in terms of sound/usability of my room.

I'm in the midst of using Corel Draw to detail the layout of the room I have, and maybe a couple of ideas that I have. I've taken some pics of my existing studio (such as it is...) that I'll be able to post along with it. Hopefully, all that will help.

Thanks!!

Chris

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

The part I didn't understand.... "The lowest freq that room will support is 51 hZ, which will be too strong due to bass

Hi Steve, say, this is got me confused too. When you say that, exactly what are you refering to? Does that mean you can't hear it? I also read some statements in Everests book that were similar. I don't understand. If a band plays outdoors, I can certainly hear the bass notes and there aint no room to support anything outdoors. So can you explain a little. Please don't get TOO upset with me if you have already explained this in the past. My memory doesn't serve me well. I'm reading as much as I can regarding this, but as I said, neuron node building in this old brain is very poor Sometimes it takes two or three whacks upside the head to get it right Whack,!Whack!..."you payin attention now boy?" Ha!


PS Steve, about the diffuser thing. I too got on the net last night and punched in rpg. Naturally all the sites were related to corporate RPG, but one I found was a guy who is a studio/monitor designer in England. He pretty much stated point blank that all the stuff about diffusers was mostly crap, and basically said all they do is TRASH the sound. Man, talk about getting confused, I don't fucking know what to believe anymore!! And have you seen all the diffuser designs proliferating on the net? Holy shit. Whats more, is rectangular rooms vs. splaying. Man, I'm about ready to say FUCK
IT and just do what I'm going to do and treat it till it sounds good. Theres a great section in Everests book about absorbsion in patches...let me quote it for those of you who do not have this book. (I hope this is ok to do this Steve let me know if this is NOT COOL ) But it is quite interesting.
Quote:
"Applying all the absorbant in a room on one or two surfaces does not result in a diffuse condition, nor is the absorbant used effeciently. Let us consider the results of an experiment which shows the effect of distributing the absorbent The experimental room is approximately a 10 foot cube and it was tiled(not an ideal recording or listening room, but acceptable for this experiment. For test 1, revereration time for the bare room was measured and found to be 1.65 seconds at 2khz. For test 2, a common commercial absorber was applied to 65% of one wall.(65 sq. ft.)and the reverberation time at the same frequency was found to be 1.02 seconds. For test 3, the same area of absorber was divided into four sections, one piece mounted on each of the four of the room's six surfaces. This brought the reverberation time down to about .55 seconds.
The startling revelation here is that the area of the absorber was identical between tests 2 and 3, the only difference was that in test 3 it was in four pieces, one on each of 3 walls and one piece on the floor. By the simple expedient of dividing the absorbent and distributing it, the revereration time was CUT ALMOST IN HALF. Cranking the values of RT60 of 1.02 and 0.55 seconds and the volume and area of the room into the Sabine equation, we find that the average absorption coeffecient of the room increased from 0.08 to 0.15 and the number of absorption units from 48 to 89 Sabines. Where did all this extra absorption com from? Labratory testing personnel, measuring absorption coefficients in reverberation chambers have AGONIZED OVER THE PROBLEM FOR YEARS. Thier conclusion is there is an EDGE EFFECT, related to diffraction of sound that makes a given sample appear to be much larger acoustically. Stated another way, the sound absorbing efficiency of 65 sq. ft of absorbing material is only about half that of four 16 square feet pieces."
Well, thats not all he has to say, especially that this is at 2khz, but up at 7 and 8khz the effect is much lower. But still, that tells me, if you had calculated absorption for the whole room using x sq. ft, and then cut it up, your calcs would be way off. At least at 2khz. I wonder if the same thing applys for other materials, say wood floors where you have boundarys with carpet. And diffusers have absorption qualitys also. Hmmm, well this tells me you could really mess up a target RT60 also, if you didn't understand these principles. Damn, this is like a minefield. Well, I guess its study time some more eh Steve? Gentleman, sorry for the long post. I hope someone gets something out of this.
fitz

 

[knightfly]

Guys, got answers for most if not all your questions but it's 04:50 AM here and I gotta head for the salt mines - as the boat builder said, "ketch yawl later"... Steve

BTW, Rick, check some of my recent posts in this section - mentioned the "edge effect" in one of them (and Everest might get pissed about the quote, copyrights and all - I tend NOT to do that myself, just caution mostly...)

 

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

I knew better. I apologize Mr. Everest. Never again.
fitz

 

[Chris Tondreau]

first graphic

Here is the rough layout of what I'll be moving in to. The ceiling is just shy of 9'. The dimensions listed are in feet, but aren't as precise as the decimals suggest.... I couldn't figure out how to edit them exactly in CorelDraw.

I'm looking at putting a counter top across the entire 7'3" width, under the window, leaving me swith a working/tracking area of roughly 7'3" x 9'. Optionally, I'm looking at running it along the length of the 11' wall, (so the plug would be underneath...) where it would stop roughly flush with the bifold door. This would leave me with a working/tracking area of roughly 11' x 5'.

Either way, I DO have the option of running some long cables to another room where I could have some more space, should the situation call for it. Ideally, though, I'd like to make this small room sound as good as possible, and have enough room to set up and record a drum kit - with some dilligent "space management." Or am I completely nuts for even thinking this is possible?

Thanks in advance for your replies!

Chris