Theory Type Of Question About Rhythm

[Slinky3]

Hello,

I have a question that really focuses on rhythm.

I don't understand it fully, I purchased a hand drum and I can come up with some decent sounding rhythm patterns. I know about time signatures, quarter notes, eighth notes, syncopation, etc. And know some music theory. Have a ton of books on it.

Say in a rock type of band set up of:
Drums
Bass Guitar
Guitar
Keyboards
Singer


Here is my understanding so far:

Let's say singer is singing the lead melody, so he is not part of the rhythm section.
And we will say the guitar player is playing lead, countering with the lead singer and playing solos, so in this fake scenario he is not part of the rhythm section.

Ok here is the part I find hard to grasp.

Will say Drums, Bass, and Keyboards are left to handle the rhythm section for this band's song.

Question:

This is kind of hard to explain for me, I am not asking how to create rhythms, or about rhythms for a single instrument, but more of how do these instruments Drums, Bass, Keyboard relate to each other in this example of a set up? I know there can be a million ways to have them interweave, played, different patterns, etc. That is a bit confusing I know. I will try to explain better with a example:

You know when you hear a song and you are able to tap out the rhythm. I listen to songs an I am able to tap out the rhythms, then I try to listen closer to see what is making those rhythms, and for me its hard to figure it out. I know it is a combinations of all of them Drums, Bass, and Keyboards (using above example)…but how and why? Is the Drums kind of like the metronome and the Bass and Keyboard sort of counter the drums to cause rhythmic tension? Or is everything pretty lock step with the drums, and Bass and Keyboards will some times not play with the drum for a note or two, or sometimes they will add more notes here and there? An if you do switch up things a lot with one of the rhythm instruments how do you maintain the songs overall rhythm?

Well hopefully someone can understand what I mean and trying to explain, I just really would like some more insight on this, or if someone can point me in right direction, I would truly appreciate it.

 

[RAMI]

I think you're over-thinking this, and it's possible that I'm not toally understanding your question. But I'll try to answer it based on what I think you're asking.

It really comes down to what sounds good and what YOU want in YOUR song. Often, the bass is playing exactly what the bass drum is playing. Often, it's not. A keyboard or rythm guitar can be playing around those 2 instruments or locking in with them. There are no rules.

Remmeber in every 4/4 bar, there are 16 available 16th notes. It's up to you how many of those 16th notes you want to fill up and how syncopated and "weaved" you want everything to sound.

Listen to "Iron Man" by Black Sabbath. There is no counter-point at all. I haven't heard the song in a while, but if I remember correctly, EVERYTHING is pretty much following the main riff, even the lead vocals. Now, go listen to "Get on the Good Foot" or "Superbad" by James Brown. Pretty much everything is doing it's own thing, or so it seems. It all comes together to form the "rythm" of the overall song.

Experiment. There is no right or wrong. There's only what sounds good or bad, and that's up to you to decide if it's your song.

 

[Bristol Posse]

If you have guitar parts and vocals that are in no way linked to the rhythm of the song then what you end up with is jazz . and from there it's a slippery slope

 

[Slinky3]

Thanks for the great answers, I am most likely over thinking it. I think I am getting it.

So take the James brown songs, basically all the rhythm instruments playing there own thing at the same time actually creates ONE rhythm right?

An to the 2nd answer, so you want your main melodies to go with the rhythm of the song too? I know not all the time, but you want it to sometimes counter it, sometimes interweave with it, and sometimes double it....depending on the effect or mood you are after for that song?

 

[grimtraveller]

An to the 2nd answer, so you want your main melodies to go with the rhythm of the song too? I know not all the time, but you want it to sometimes counter it, sometimes interweave with it, and sometimes double it....depending on the effect or mood you are after for that song?

To be honest this is an almost impossible question to answer because across every genre of music, even jazz and avant garde stuff, there are frankly thousands upon thousands of songs/pieces that rhythmically, do such different things at different times, sometimes within the same song.

So take the James brown songs, basically all the rhythm instruments playing their own thing at the same time actually creates ONE rhythm right?

In a sense all songs do this, but in different ways. The "Iron man" example is an interesting one because the guitar, bass and vocal all go exactly the same way for the main part while Bill Ward's drums are actually the freer instrument. Yet Ward's playing is intensely rhythmic and is foundational to the song.
If you listen to music from India, parts of Africa or South America, there will often be rhythms and counter rhythms seemingly making one rhythmic presence but can also create quite complex feels within a given song.
And thinking about it even a melody has a rhythm to it.

I am most likely over thinking it.

Pretty much. And now you've got some of us doing likewise !

 

[Farview]

If you are asking these questions in order to search out a formula for arranging instruments in a song, don't bother. there isn't one.

The point of all the instruments that are not playing the lead part (what ever that is at the moment) is to support the lead part. If the bass line is the focus of the rhythm section, the drum part is there to support it and the keys are there to give it context. Then, as a whole, the rhythm section is there to give context and support the vocal melody.

How you choose to go about doing that is up to you.

 

[Slinky3]

thanks for answer, I am not wanting a formula of how to arrange song...maybe just more of a clearer understanding on how the instruments rhythmically relate to each other i guess. B/c in typical rock type of song I heard things like you want bass guitar to follow kick drum most of the time, snare on 2 and 4, kick on 1 and 3, etc.

But now i think I am understanding more. What I said above is not rules, but really means: kick on 1 and 3, snare on 2 and 4, bassline following kick, etc., is what you want that will give you a generic rock rhythmic feel. (but will probably sound extremely generic and boring).

I have been listening to a lot of music lately and listening to the interplay of song's rhythm instruments.
From what I heard and as stated in a couple of answers here:
the bass can be lock step with drums or it can do its own thing or both
the rhythm guitars/keys can play along with drums or bass or do their own thing or both
the drums can be basically a time keeper or do their own thing or both.

So basically rhythmically anything and everything can work as long as it sounds good and gives you that rhythmic feel/groove you want for your song.

 

[grimtraveller]

So basically rhythmically anything and everything can work as long as it sounds good and gives you that rhythmic feel/groove you want for your song.

Yeah.
Even a basic bottom of the range drum machine will carry at least 500 drum patterns. And while 3,4 or 5 will be variations of one of the patterns, that's still a heck of alot of patterns. What bass, keyboards, guitars, percussion and brass can do with those alone is infinitessimal.
But you know, the reason I never use them is because they never contain the patterns I want ! Plus a real human will put their own spin on things. So many different things can work with so many different things.

I have been listening to a lot of music lately and listening to the interplay of song's rhythm instruments.

Ultimately, this is your best bet. Keep on listening, not only for pleasure, but for study {you get the best of both worlds this way}. Sometimes, something rhythmically wonderful that you think the drummer is doing turns out not to be the drummer at all. I remember a couple of years ago being struck by the drumming on David Bowie's "The jean genie". Always loved the track. Then as I really listened to it, the wicked rhythm that I thought was Woody Woodmansey wasn't ! His drumming was rudimentary, beyond 'simple' actually and remarkable only in it's stark unadventurousness. And I was really surprized because the first thing that always gets me about the song is the rhythm. But it's actually the tambourine, claps, bass and rhythm guitar that really carry it rhythmically and make the head nod and the foot tap. You could almost take the drums out although in reality, it does play a role. The importance of the arrangement is emphasized because the arrangement itself is saturated with rhythm.