the theory of big, fat, warm sound!

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CyanJaguar

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full article
http://www.sospubs.co.uk/sos/sep01/articles/demo_tron.htm

this demo was done at somebody's home. It has problems but stands out for being warm and big.

The reviewer attributes this to the fact that it was recorded to tape before going to digital.

ARE WE DOOMED?

I hear awesome digital recordings, but they seem to lack this phat that is characteristic of cds like seal, staind, dido.

IS it ALL attributed to tape? if it is, shoul I be saving for a tape machine?

Are there other factors invloved?

Your input is highly recommended :)

I better go get out my karaoke tape machine. Oh wait, it does not have sync.
 
That demo does sound huge and "in your face". I might attribute it to the way it was converted to MP3. I hate to judge the quality of ANY recording by an MP3. You would need a CD to really hear what it sounds like.
 
Tape

Yeah! I hear about people going to analog and back into their DAW also on a track by track basis. I am wondering about that myself!

Does anyone have a clue as to what quality tape deck you would need in order not to compromise your digital recording with hiss, etc? Do any use hi fi VCR's? All you really need is two tracks!!

Any thoughts?

albert
 
Something I was pondering..... you know the little tape adapters for those who want to play cds but only have a tape deck in their vehicle? How do those work? Is the digital signal converted to then imprinted on the tape, read by the tape, then erased? Couldn't you maybe output through the mini, put the cassette into a decent deck, push play then output from the deck, in essence making a real-time "analog" effect of sorts?

Probably would sound like crap, but I was thinking about that the other day when I was listening to a cd and had the volume set too high, causing it to overload and the tape to actually compress the mix on louder sections during the song.
 
The kind of tape compression that everyone lusts for won't be had from VCRs or cassette decks or even 1/4' reel to reels. That comes from 2" machines.
 
hi trackrat,

Why would a 1/4 inch or a regular tape deck not give the tape compression. Do they work on different pricinciples?

thanks
 
Its simply not possible to judge anything correctly based on an MP3 file.
"warmth" does not necessarily have to come from tape sound. Personally I think I get fuller, rounder sounds now with good digital gear than I ever did using 2".

All tape can do is introduce a certain harmonic distortion that is pleasing to the ear. You don't have to use a 2 " machine anymore to use this, there are excellent soft and hardware tools available to introduce tape saturation.
 
I had to tell somebody !

I am a total newbie to recording so if this is not news ,go easy.I was going through some of my dads electronic equipment last week and came upon his old Sansui 1000 reciever,he bought it in the 60's or 70's,or something like that,anyway it was before I was born.I remember the fat full sound it put out,so I asked if I could have it ,he said one side had gone out and would need to be repaired,so the first thing I did was look on the internet on how to fix it,and I found that I needed to do some trouble-shooting first.to make a long story short,I hooked my cd player up to the sansui,and ran the pre out to my surround reciever's cd line in,and guess what I got... FAT SOUND! I have never used a studio preamp before so I don't know if it does the same thing,but for $4.99 for a can of compressed air I bought a sound fatter than I thought I could achieve! I use a fostex fd-4 for my mics,keyboard,and sound modules,and the sound was always sterile,thin,tinny,but now I get a thicker,warmer sound using this reciever,and I can add subtle distortion by turning the bass up.To tell you the truth I never heard of anyone doing this,and I fell ass backward into the idea,but if you have an old reciever,preamp, try it "Ya Jus Nevva Know!":D
 
Totally right, Absolute :)

Those amps were killer, as were many others in those days, in particular Yamaha and Marantz amps and receivers. This was the time before "small and light", and this equipment had proper heavy duty components and very good power supplies.
If you have a family member who has one of those large 3 rack space old things, make sure you're in their will (or buy them a nice new stereo for X-mas!)
 
I wanna mention a handful of things, but first off, I must apologize for the length of this post and how long it'll take you to get through it. But I think the topic merits it.

Recently, I was going through a series of threads related to what Recording Engineer thinks about Davisound equipment. One thing that jumped out at me was his talking about tracking to tape, and how the take was almost mixed already, the sound was so good.

Next, here's a thread from the Pro Audio board - a buncha pros bashing Pro Tools basically, but pay particular attention to comments by Rog and Mixerman. None of 'em are saying digital sounds better than tape, and most say the opposite:

http://www.recording.org/cgi-local/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=21&t=000028

Finally, here's an excerpt from an article I got from the Tape Op site (go there if you want the whole article):

A low cost, high quality analog studio?
by Steve Pogact

"Having just completed equipping a new project studio, I would like to offer a few thoughts on why (and how) analog equipment might deserve serious consideration when planning your studio’s gear purchases.

"Analog Recorders - Some of the greatest performance-per-dollar bargains in pro audio include analog open reel recorders. While two inch 24 track machines and _" mixdown decks still command reasonable prices on the used market, most other formats are available for pennies on the dollar. Included among these bargains are one inch 8 track and two inch 16 track recorders, arguably the finest sounding analog recording formats ever manufactured for commercial sale. With 24 tracks having been the standard studio track configuration for a _ century, the 8 track recorders have long been considered obsolete. The 16 track decks command somewhat higher prices but are still viewed as inadequate by most. I’ll spare you the tired stories about the Beatles and others recording their seminal masterpieces on far fewer tracks; suffice it to say that with proper planning, either of these two formats can work practically and efficiently for most types of music. And if the rest of the recording signal chain is up to par, these two formats can record and playback your music with fidelity unsurpassed by any other equipment, analog or digital, at any price. Not bad when you consider that one-inch 8-tracks in good working condition can cost less than the remote control for an ADAT or DA88 system.

"I’m not sure how much longer these firesale prices will continue. We’re dealing with a finite quantity of recorders (they ain’t making any more) and demand is starting to creep up. Commercial studios are starting to promote the old MCI 16 track in their basement as offering that "warm analog tone" to a new generation of musicians trying to ride the latest retro fad. And the biggest surprise is the discovery that 8 track decks are ideal for mastering 5.1 format surround recordings. A few enterprising hucksters are starting to ask inflated prices in classified listings and on the auctions sites, but the recorders that actually sell are still going for prices that make them extremely attractive to savvy buyers. I should know better than to toss out likely price estimates, but…… figure $1,500 to $3,500 for one inch 8 track and $4,000 to $6,500 for two inch 16 track decks in "ready to go" condition. Please remember that even the best maintained recorders will need to be adjusted, aligned, biased, etc. prior to putting them into service at your studio. In my opinion, the end result is worth whatever effort it takes."

Ideas in this article connect with ideas that came up in the Pro Audio thread.

Finally, Sjoko talks in this thread about getting that tape saturation sound digitally. I think this is the way to go if you know how to do it, (Well, Sjoko, how *do* you do it? :D), but only because digital stuff is so hyped these days that it's the cheapest way to go considering that most of us are into it up to the hilt already.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I know you will anyway. :D
 
I always love to see people talk bad about the "sound" of systems like Pro Tools. Don't take this as critisizing those people, I was a complete analogue freak until 3 years ago, when I found out what made digital sound tick, how to make it sound good. Most critics don't know, or don't know as yet.

The fact is - Pro Tools and similar systems DON'T HAVE A SOUND. No audio goes in them comes out of them, goes through them. Data - yes. Audio - NO!!

So if anyone claims Pro Tools sounds bad, they have their feet firmly planted in confusion land.

Like I always claim - its all about clocks, converters, and a solid I/O chain. Get that sorted and your digital sound is as good as, if not better than, anything possible in the analogue domain.

If people like Alan Sides (Oceanway's owner and top 'ears' in my opinion), now records on near 9 figure consoles but tracks to PT instead of 2" - by choice - do you need more proof?
The vbest proof is - listen
 
sjoko2 said:

The fact is - Pro Tools and similar systems DON'T HAVE A SOUND. No audio goes in them comes out of them, goes through them. Data - yes. Audio - NO!!

So if anyone claims Pro Tools sounds bad, they have their feet firmly planted in confusion land.


Wow I really appreciate that. You speak the truth.

tape is basically adding a sound where DAWS just encode
 
C'mon, Sjoko - those guys at Pro Audio were talking about Pro Tools algorithms screwing up the data in a way that has a negative knock-on effect on the sound.

You don't have to take sides on this issue, it's just a matter of weighing the pros and cons of each one. For me, the upside of digital is that it's cheap and getting better. But from the things that people with ears say, if I had $15000 to spend, 2" tape would be a very funky way to go.
 
sjoko2

are you sure you meant to say near 9 figure consoles,I have heard of the ssl consoles that cost a mil but millions! I'm not trying to correct you,I'm just curious what consoles are in that range,and do they come with a starbuck's,and a lifetime staff? :confused:
 
I agree with enemy of the sun that while good digital is "what goes in is what comes out

but tape makes it bigger. I really love listening to tape recorded stuff.


but for some excellent proof. I had an offline conversation with a dude who uses BOTH tape and analog.

Hed did two mixes. One was totally in protools. THe other one had the lead vocal only go back out to tape. Can you guess which one went out to tape?

take time to listen to both



and



He was using a studer, and guess what. Even with all the hassle of tape, he is making more and more mixes with tape involved.
 
I prefer the overall sound of the Lilisabeau song. I like the vocal sound of the Lilisabeau song better too - it sounds clearer and more present, and like it's sitting in a more attractive light. This might be partly because of her voice, and it sounds like it was mixed more upfront in the mix too.

Sidenote: I like both of these singers - good talent.

Sidenote 2: about 'Fall Down on my Knees'. I understand why someone would fall down on their knees, and I understand why someone would write a song about it. But you know, that falling down on one's knees, although understandable, isn't really necessary - and *that* would make a more interesting song. :)

You say the vocal on one of these was sent out to tape for the mix - but what were they tracked on?

Finally, the best test would be to do the same song, same artist, on both analog and digital and compare. But I'm glad you posted these links - thanks.

So, do I win the Lucid converter? :D
 
Hey dobro,

the guy goes from a u87 into a focusrite platinum into apogee ad8000 converters. He then sends back what he wants out through the apogee DA into the studer.

I would much rather prefer not going back out, as I don't want two more conversion stages in the music, but it works.
I've emailed you which one was tape.
 
Cyan - let me understand this .... he records an analogue signal, converts it to digital, then converts it to analogue again?

That does not make sence at all. Why not go mic - pre - tape????? That would definately sound much better!

Also - do you think you would get a better, warmer sound with your gear if you went mic- pre - tape? or with your current set-up?

One of Uru's demos on MP3 was recorded using an Oram console and a Tascam 2" machine. Guess which one
 
hi sjoko2,

I think I am getting the best sound possible out of my digital gear, with great converters and a good clock.

I think that tape will add another dimension to it. Of course, I am not looking at tape just yet, because it will cost about $2000-$3000 for a good one inch tape machine.

The uru song that went to tape was BitterSweet. It is also my favorite, although I love the sound you got off desert city as well, even though it sounds clean with none of the tape effects.

The best thing will be to have a nice studer tape machine going into lucid converters for the best sound all around.
 
Well, is the boy right or not? I say: if he's right, give him a job in your studio.

As for me, I say: c'mon, narrow it down - nobody wants to listen to five downloads to pick out the the song to tape. What a doober. :D
 
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