The Professional Vocal Sound

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jimmy Z~
  • Start date Start date
Yes, I believe there is NO quick fix. You can't just go out and buy gear, learn how to set it up (took me 3 years on and off just to do that!)and expect to have great sound. It must be trial and error after error until something works!

My whole fear, is that I don't want to WASTE the TIME, which I can never been given back, if the gear won't be able to create what I am trying to accomplish to begin with!!! (Again not state of the art, but decent professional sound)

If music stores and merchandisers (ie. Mackie, DA-88) are selling this equipment, with either the knowledge that it sucks or with not attempting to find out whether it will give decent sound to begin with (misrepresentation), then it is unconscionable and I think we all should file a class action law suit to sue the pants off those who propogate this SCAM!
Don't think that these articles which claim an album was created using certain gear could possibly be a SCAM too!

It took years to perfect my guitar skills and there are still techniques I need to learn, I guess the same goes for recording, it all takes TIME and EFFORT.

But if these merchandisers and stores are BANKING on us continuing to think that more time and effort are required to prevent us complaining, then we all have been taken unfair advantage of. We rely on store salesman's expertise, so when they tell us something will give us professional sound, they warrant that the equipment will be able to achieve it.

I can't say how many times I have seen lower income musicians taking out loans to purchase this equipment in the hopes of making a career. If it is all a SCAM, I think we need to address this problem uniformly across the country, by having disgruntled recordists band together in a class action!


Here's a bet: (gentleman's)
If there is ANY ONE on this list, with decent equipment, who has a great sounding tape, send it to me! I bet NO ONE does and that would be unfortunate for us all.

If any one can prove my SCAM idea wrong, please do so!!!

Jimmy Z~

P.S. As I have finished saying all of this, I remember an old soundman of mine recording our drummer using an old peavy live board and a simple Tascam 244 4 track tape recorder and he made it sound AMAZING! Maybe it is just dump luck no matter what the eqipment!!!???
 
Jimmy Z~,

I do agree with you concerning the hype of alot of this gear sold to the masses. I do believe that some "prosumer" gear is highly overrated. Especially in the recording department. That's why I've gone to the approach that I'm using now. I have a modest home studio setup, which includes a digital audio workstation (PC, Pent. III 500, Event Electronics Gina Audio Interface, blah, blah), a few good keyboards, Logic Audio. My mixer is currently an old EV mixer , but I'm in the process of buying a Mackie 1202. Basically my expectations for this set up is low. I expect to be able to do good demo mixes. And so far, I can.

I use this setup day to day. As I get closer into recording the real parts for my album, I will rent some high quality preamps (Neve) compressors (LA 2A's) and microphone (Neumann U47- lead, U87's or AKG 414's for backgrounds). For the keyboards and other instruments, I plan on renting some pro DI boxes and/or preamps. Basically, I plan on using the same stuff that the pros talk about using in pro recording mags.

In this way, I'm getting the best of both worlds, I get to have a functional home studio and when I'm doing something critical I will rent the same boxes that pro studios use. At least this way, I won't be fooling myself about what my gear is really capable of. The money I saved by NOT buying up all of this "prosumer" gear, I can dedicate to renting gear that I could expect to find in a high-end pro studio.

There still are compromises. I won't have the most ideal recording or mixing spaces. For that I'm building makeshift gobos to create a mobile vocal booth and for diffusion boxes when mixing. I don't have the huge control room monitors or a variety of monitor that are in many high-end studios. But for that, I'll just burn a CD and play it on as many sytems as possible, including the wall of studio monitors at the local music store.

This is the way that I've chosen to bypass of the hype associated with gear that "sounds just like what the pros use". That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Rev E

P.S. I just read an article about a band called Fisher. This band recently signed with farmclub/Interscope Records. They're one of the more highly downloaded groups on MP3.com. I'm not sure of their most recent material, but one of their singles "Breakable" was recorded in their house (except for the drums) using some modest owned and rented pro gear (rented Neumann U67 - vocals, owned Amek 9098 preamp, MOTU Digital Perfomer w/ "stock" plugins, Kurzweil K2000, drums recorded in a studio, vocals recorded in the hallway. To me it sounds just as good as any studio. This should be inspiring to many home musicians. Here's the link.
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/14/fisher1.html
 
and rented pro gear (rented Neumann U67 - vocals, owned Amek 9098 preamp, MOTU Digital Perfomer w/ "stock" plugins

Rev,

What is MOTU Digital Performer?

Thanks,

Jimmy Z~
 
Jimmy Z~,

MOTU Digital Performer - is Mark of the Unicorn Digital Performer. It's a digital audio recording/sequencing computer program.
It does the same thing as Cakewalk, Emagic Logic Audio, Cubase, etc...

Rev E

[This message has been edited by Rev E (edited 03-13-2000).]
 
Rev E,

You said you heard the Neve 1081 pre-amp right? I called Neve and they sell it in pairs for some reason, it costs $10k and the V Rack costs $14k! Or did you hear a Neve console?

If you did hear the 1081 or the V-rack, did you think it sounded good enough for me to spend the cash?

I didn't see them list a 1073, is that another pre-amp? An older version perhaps?

I am going for the Pro-tools Mix+ $8k and sell my DA-88! Should I go for the NT system? Someone told me there are no plug-ins or less plug-ins on the NT, is this true?
Does Pro-tools blow away Cubase, Cake Walk and Ensoniq Paris???
Thanks!

Jimmy Z~
 
Jimmy Z~,

Off hand, you may be able to get a used 1081 for a much better price and without having to buy a pair. The Neve that I heard was an older Neve console. I don't remember the number. It wasn't one of the preamps. (Although the 1081 is the outboard preamp for an older Neve console) You're right the 1073 is an older model. I've heard that some pro's swear by it. So if you've got the cash, go for it!

You can also get a rebuild Neve preamp(s) from Brent Averill Enterprises. I'm actually looking this way in the near future. The prices are from < $1k to ~$3k. His web site has several vintage Neve modules and other companies (API, etc). BTW the site is http://www.brentaverill.com/

The Pro Tools Mix24 system should be a treat. Although, If I were you I would go Mac-based. Right now there's just so much software plug-in support for the Mac format, it just doesn't make sense to go PC for Pro Tools yet.

Hey!!! in your list of comparisons, you didn't include Emagic Logic. You can't forget Logic!!! To tell the truth, I know that Pro Tools is stable and industry respected and all, I can't see why pay that much for what you could get for a third the cost with a good PC and one of the programs that you mentioned or Logic. All of the top sequencers/digital audio programs have the ability to do up to 24 bit. With a good sound interface, they're all equivalent (except for the brand name of "Pro Tools" and the much higher price). But that's just my 2 cents.

I gotta run. Respond and I'll get back to you. Keep pushing tha limits!!!!

Rev E

[This message has been edited by Rev E (edited 03-15-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Rev E (edited 03-15-2000).]
 
You can get pro results with the equipment you have. Make sure you are hitting everything hard enough in your signal chain and make sure your vocalist is using the mic properly. A really good vocal booth can make all the difference as well. Also, you should be able to get great results with your DA-88. I get great results with DA-88's , Adats, VST/ MOTU 2408, you name it. Techniques rule friend.

Hit that DA-88 with some good signal and make sure your vocalists is on the mic too. If they're overloading the mic, use a pad or a dynamic. Trust me, you have what it takes.

Peace,

Steve in Bermuda
 
If you start working in the digital arena one trick you might try is to duplicate the track then on the dup insert the tinyest bit of time into the track moving it forward, this will give you much fatter sound to work with. You have to be real gentle withthe amount of off set used.
 
Usually if something is frustrating me while recording and the problem isn't immediately apparent, there is one thing you can be sure of...the problem is something. It's not evil spirits or bad karma, it's something in your system or methodology. You should be able to track it down and kill it. Just do it systematically.

As discussed above, there are a number of different areas where the problem could be, including your recording environment (room), equipment, your listening environment (room and monitors) and your technique.

Assuming you have some idea as to what you're doing, and it sounds like you do, I'd try systematically to isolate the problem. Don't assume anything...i.e. just because you're using a U87 doesn't necessarily mean it's working properly. Switch out or bypass each component in your signal chain at the recording level. Sounds like you've got some $$$ to play with, so try renting a different deck and see if there's a difference.
Try different acoustic treatments. The best suggestion I saw was to post the problem recording and let us have a kick at it--maybe we'll hear the problem, or maybe we'll tell you to relax, it sounds great! (Some people don't like the way their own voice sounds when recorded, just like some hate pictures of themselves.)
 
This is probably too late a post, but oh well.


Do not use your equipment as a scapegoat, sir. That is SUCH the novice's mistake.

Your easy swallowing of over-analyzed, over-heady, flaunting advice of professional engineers is probably going to lead you down a more costly financial road. While I am no fan of Mackies or DA-88s myself, the FACT is they have been used in the making of some very decent, professional recordings. i know. i've heard. while 24 track will beef up your sound and blah blah blah, your problems are much more simple. and if they're not corrected, you'll just be spending a whole lot more to put to tape more horrendous sounds.

like my new friend Shailiat said, uh... you should probably put some effects on there. reverbs, delays, choruses.

and i would suggest... EQing?

it's absolutely no wonder to me why it sounds like crap.
 
GUYS:

Speaking of how your tracks sound. Can you take a listen to my tracks and tell me what you think. Are they weak? Good/Bad? What would you recomend to improve them?

Please your suggestions will be great! And be honest.!

Thanks
 
jimmy z,
hey i read this whole post and i think its redickulous. i might not get GREAT sounds or anything but i get pretty damn decent sounds, and i have nothing compared to what u have. either ur doing something really wrong or ur nuts and it sounds fine.


now u should go out of ur board into ur comp. and record what it is ur complaining about and turn it into an mp3 so we can all listen, cause unless u do this were not gonna be able to tell u what we think and ull still be confused as ever. do u have friends? ask them see what their opinion is.


well anyways, i do it all wrong i go into my art tube pres (thanx ed) and then into my board. ill eq and compress if i think it needs it and i use what ever cords i can afford. then i go into my lx-20 adats and then out of them into my old yamaha foldback console and do what i have to to make it sound right, and im monitoring off of krk roc's.


so check out my stuff and tell me wht u think. www.audioconfusion.com listen to "rondo vega" molly coddle me, i think its the best. and sign my guest book!!!! :)

later,
jal

[This message has been edited by jal (edited 07-07-2000).]

[This message has been edited by jal (edited 07-07-2000).]
 
Yeah what a good aticle
glad I stumbled on to it....some very Imformative stuff there Rev E

Tony
 
anyone else notice that all of jimmy's 8 posts are in this topic and after march he never returned ? ? hmmn..

- eddie -
 
I hope this idea doesn't come too late, but if you want a real cheap solution replace the focusrite with a TLaudio. There about the same price. i believe it's the 5051 type. it has a preamp/compr/EQ and sounds great when recording to DA-88. I prefer it above the focusrite with doesn't ring to my ears. Give it a try, it might save you a lot of bugs. I don't believe you need 100K equipment for a good prof vocal. (at least I don't). Don't forget to use your ears, you can buy al the equipment you want, but if you don't hear it it will never get right on tape.
 
word up jedi... adats and da-88's are pretty much industry standard, every studio has them and some damn good records have certainly been recorded on'em. The moderator from the other room did everything but adress the guy's problem...all he did was blab on about how great he thinks he is... :mad: The best advice i read on this joke of a thread came from shailat...he touched upon the vocal room.. this guys probably doing them in his kitchen.
 
there's an old adage - a bad workman blames his tools - look youre starting out in a very complicated skill area - recording - the gear you've got should get you a good vocal sound as your mates inferior studio proved. I've made perfectly acceptable recordings on a Mackie i.e. they won awards! It's the skills you lack nothing more, don't go out and break your bank buying a whole lot of gear you won't understand - keep at it one day you'll laugh at your early attempts at recording - got a soundcraft ghost eh sonusman - excellent choice.
 
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