The Professional Vocal Sound

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jimmy Z~
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Jimmy Z~

New member
Can anyone help? If anyone has a pro sounding vocal, please send me a copy and tell me how to do it!!!
I think to get pro sound at home is a HOAX by music stores to get our money, please prove me wrong before I sell everything!!!

I have spent over $30k on my home studio. I have top of the line gear.
I can not get a professional sounding vocal.
Here is how I am recording:

Tracking: Nuemann U-87, into Focusrite pre-amp, straight into DA-88 and have tried also recording straight to a Tascam TRS-8 (1/2" tape deck)

Mastering: Back from tape machine, through mackie 24x8, through Tascam DAT machine DA-30, into Marantz tapedeck

I also compress the vocal as it is mixing down with a y cord into an apehx compressor and the channel insert on the mackie

I am not EQing at all through the mackie on mix down

I am getting a demo sound!!!
What the hell is going on!!!
PLEASE HELP, I"LL PAYYYYY$$$$

Thanks, Jimmy Z~
 
Hey- don't go Ken Webber on us.
Do your homework and actually try the reasonable suggestions you'll get here from people in the same boat.
Do a high quality dub of what you've already got to .mp3 (say 256Kbps .mp3) and post it in the MP3 mixing Clinic forum. Maybe someone can point out what you're doing wrong. I've got doodley next to that line-up and I like the sound that I'm getting.
From my naive viewpoint I'd suspect that the
Marantz would be the weakest link but you didn't mention what model. Or what kind of speakers/monitoring system you've got.
With that kind of dough invested, I have to wonder why you didn't include a PC DAW with a burner at a minimum.
 
Well, let's eliminate some potential problems.

Are you using high end mic wires and line level wire to interconnect everything? I am talking at least top of the line Magomi or Canare, but the preference would be Monster Studio Pro 1000. Bad wire will make the best gear sound lousy.

Next. DA-88's are not all that!!! 16 bit recording is not all that either. So don't think you are going to get the fat 2" analog tape sound from DA 88's. Or ADAT's, except maybe the ADAT XT 20's. You will have better luck if you use a 24 bit converter. Something that will convert 24 bit/48KHz sampling rate AES/EBU to the appropriate format for your digital recorders. But even then, you are at the mercy of some inferior D/A converters. So, you need to step up the converters you are using.

Next. A Mackie is junk pure and simple. I have not heard one Mackie console that has a nice warm fat sound!!! Hell, my Soundcraft Ghost console is worlds better than anything Mackie makes, and still, my Ghost is not anything like a Amek, or a NEVE, or a SSL console that costs more than 10 times as much. Big boy studio's generally have a million dollar SSL console to mix through. Don't even believe that a Mackie can touch a console like that.

Next. Big time recordings are not mixed to DAT tape, or a CD burner. That is only 16 bit converters on those machines. You will not get a big fat warm sound on 16 bit converters. Maybe the converter you get for tracking to your DA 88's can also second as your A/D converter going to your Tascam, and then you will get a better sound. But still, nothing beats keeping everything 24 bits untill mastering.

And about mastering. You gotta have a lot of dough to put together a mastering suite that works well. Trust me, most mastering suites have over twice what you have into your whole system just to master stereo tracks. If you cannot master wholly in the 24 bit realm, forget competing with the big boys my friend.

Next. You didn't mention your monitors at all. Big time monitoring systems are going to run you well over $4000. That is entry level my friend. So, if you don't have a killer set of speaker, and a descreet class A power amp, forget about hearing things as well as the big boys do.

Next. How long have you been recording? I have over ten years experience. The last 4 have been hard core professional experience. I spend hours upon hours perfecting recording techniques. I also listen to music on my sytem all the time. I spend the time to hear what the differences are between stuff produced in my studio and on a consumer sytem. Without a lot of experience there is no way that you are going to get the same quality on tape that a guy who does it professionaly does. You may not even really know what sounds good when you come upon it!!!

So, the bottom line is that you are trying to compare recordings done in a "demo" studio, engineered by a "novice" to stuff recorded in a "state of the art" studio with "the best in their field" engineers.

Of course your vocals sound like a demo. That is all you are capable of at this time with your experience and equipment.

Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh. I just think that you need to approach what you are doing right now a little bit more realistically.

Ed Rei
Echo Star Studio www.echostarstudio.com
 
I agree with sonusman for the most part...

However, lets forget the DA-88 for a second so we can eliminate the converter(s) quality and bit-resolution factors. Yes it would be nice to eliminate the Mackie and monitoring problems as well... But we can't so we have to deal with the Mackie and about the monitoring system: If you know your "not so great" monitors, you can at least tell the difference between low-quality tracks on your system as compared to "professional" sounding tracks being played through your "not so great" monitors.

I guess I'm thinking more about the preamp going to tape and the cable quality (as sonusman mentioned) rather than anything else. He did say it is a Focusrite, but didn't mention which model considering Focusrite makes quite a wide-range now.

I bought one Monster Studio Pro 1000 cable just to say I've tried it myself as compared to my Canare and Mogami "top of the line" cables... I liked it (just as good and will give the benifit of the doubt of it even being a little better; if at all), but would never recommend it to anyone else at that price (or even half that price)! The only other Monster Cable I have is for my ADAT-XT ELCO. It ran me nearly $400US about 3 or 4 years? ago. I'll buy another when (if) I get another ADAT-XT.
 
deleted, I was off topic.

[This message has been edited by Emeric (edited 03-06-2000).]
 
Also, you may want to compress a little before hitting tape. You didn't say what compressor you're using.
 
Thank you so much for your help!

Yes, I guess my expectations for this home studio were high, but the Beatles had great sound with that ancient looking board? What is up with that? They had the same console from 1964 to 1969 and their sound got better and better! Must have been something other than the board....

Anyway, I am using the pro cable (Monster Studio Pro 1000),

My focusrite is the platinum voice master, which compresses the vocal when going to tape

My monitor system consists of 2 Tannoys going through an Alesis RA-100, I EQ the room too (just figured that one out)!

I also always run tests listening to my car stereo (talk about pain in the butt!) It took a month just to get it to sound good in the car! (I've heard this is a common problem)

I suspected Mackie sucked! Can you give me more information on the Soundcraft Ghost console? Why the hell doesn't Neve, SSL and others make a 1 channel console for us home recordists, to get the vocal right anyway? [Keeping us out?]

I didn't even know I could get converters to go from 16 bit to 24 bit on the DA-88's? Please tell me more! How do I step up the converters on my DA-30? By-the-way, I am not recording to the DA-30, I just run through it and record my master onto my Marantz double deck ($800)I don't know the model number of the marantz(seems like this could be a crucial mistake?)

Also, my 1/2" Tascam tape machine sounds better than the DA-88! Should I just say forget DA-88 and go for the ADAT XT-20 machine you are talking about, or bite the bullet and buy an old 2 inch, the damn tapes are $300 for 20 minutes!!! Though I know a studio that got rid of his 2" in favor of ADAT!!!

My last hope, when I go home for summer break will be to run the Nuemann mic straight into the mackie board during tracking, I hope this gives it an extra boost! When I was recording this way with my audio technica 4055, it gave me an in your face sound, but the mic was way too cold, especially for my high vocal

Lastly, my 1/2" Tascam Tape Deck makes popping noises, not actually recorded onto the tape, but in the room when recording, is this normal? Do I need to demagnatize somehow?

When all is said and done though, it seems so far that a $1,200 tape recorder gets a sound close to what I have been able to achieve, the amount of increased fidelity from $1,200 to $30k just ain't worth it!!! Take it from me!!! I even had a "sound man" at Washington Music Center say, "sometimes you just need to cut your losses"- in other words, demo is all your going to get with a mackie and DA-88 no matter what the mic or pre-amp!!!

A few trivia questions-
Anyone know what mic the Beatles used in the studio? How about the console George Martin used? Is it a tube board? It even looks like they were using 1/2" tape!!! [observations from their video anthology]

Anyone know what mic Steve Perry has photographed on his For the Love of Strange Medicine cd? Looks pretty awesome, it says something like CAV?

How about the mic Celine Dion used for the Titanic soundtrack? [as seen on her VH-1 story]

Thank you again Sonusman and Recording Engineer! Please keep this inquiry stream going
 
Ya Sonusman, hit us with another dose of reality. Just remember, if it gets much more real, half of us will give up.
 
LOL....you are right David.

When I originally posted a reply I was going to make that point also, then lock the thread. But, I got carried away.....as usual.... :D

Sorry guys, no more fun with this one. Will transfer it though to the Recording Techniques section.

Ed
 
Since you got a overdose of reality, let see if/what we can do to try and make it sound better.

You didn't mention any effects. Most commercial vocal sounds end up with a reverb and delay to simulate a rich sound.Some use an exciters, some use predelay etc..... To much effects will make it sound amaturish. What are you doing ?.

Second - A key part of a vocal is the room you are recording it in. For example to much ambience takes away the close intimate sound of a lot of popular music you hear.
I think the .MP3 is a good idea for you to get acurate feedback.
 
How do I mp3 my cassette tape? I'll do it if I can... or if anyone is up for it, I could send the tape via mail (i would send the original since I mastered to cassette and don't want to dupe a 3rd generation by simply making a copy, but please send it back)

I am using Lexicon LXP-15 reverb/delay
The song I did was "The Lady in Red", so I gave it a good dose of it

So far I have learned a few things from this forum-
1) there is 20 bit and 24 bit technology out there as opposed to my 16 bit DA-88, but is it worth buying, is there a real noticable difference right away, on vocals for instance?
2) if I change the converters on the DA-88 to Delta Sigma A/D converters, I must also change the converters on my DA-30, is this right? I called the music stores, they say I must give up 4 tracks to do this!!! I'd rather trade up, anyone agree?
3) i heard a cd from a local recording studio, they have inferior gear but had a great vocal sound, i'll be going there soon and let you all know what I find
4) also, that studio says they master going through pro-tools and prince software, anyone know what that is all about? Can the computers do wonders? Do computers work in the 20 to 24 bit domain? I would think there would be loss in fidelity when going to computers, though I am sure the editing functions are amazing ie. cut and paste very discretely
5) If computers can do wonders, how much memory must it have, what is the leading software out there to really edit ie. pitch shift a voice or fool the tonality of a voice when seeing a graph of the signal! That would be amazing. And splicing together say 5 vocal takes and making a seamless patchwork line from them (I know the ADAT's can do this but the DA-88's can't. Is there software that can do the same thing???
6) If I decide to go computer, what about the converter I would need? I would suppose that the best converter possible is what I would want in order to not lose any fidelity, right?

Thanks again,

Jimmy Z~
 
A list of answers....

1- YES!!! 24 bit converters, even 20 bit converters blow away 16 bit converters every day of the week. You will not know the difference untill you hear the difference, especially on acoustic type instruments!!!

2- Screw the music store!!! Forget about the DA-88's. Sell them.

3- would like to hear the difference. I am sure there will be if it is a decent studio.

4- Pro Tools is the industry standard software/hardware interface for computer editing, recording. But, it is not the best for mastering. Once again, 20 and 24 bit converters kick major butt over 16 bit. It is not really the computer that is making it better, it is the converters. The computer though is the preferred platform for digital editing because you have the visual interface to look at the sound file and work with it. Especially in a cut/paste function, this is almost totally necessary. You are not going to lose any fidelity going to a computer with 24 bit converters.

5- You need lots of hard drive space and RAM, and a fast processor on a computer to do proper editing, mixing, mastering of 24 bit files. There is a whole slew of software out their for editing, mastering, mixing. You will need to check it all out to see what best fits your requirements. You can do better and faster editing with software than ADAT's.

6- You will only want a 24 bit, 96KHz sampling rate converter for the very best audio to your computer. The Lynx One card is only 24bit 48KHz sampling rate, but is a amazing sounding card. Only about $450 dollars. It will also let you import 24.96 sound through it's digital ports. Go to www.lynxstudio.com to learn more.

Ed
 
SONUSMAN- thank you so much!

Now the kicker SONUSMAN-
Screw DA-88, ADATS and 2" Tape and just record straight to 24 bit to computer, would this work??? Seems it would be much cheaper too!!! Or should I only edit and master on the computer?

Seems also that I wouldn't need to buy the mastering rack unit out for $2,500 either!!!

Finally, will the mackie still cause problems, should I get a new board?

I spoke with Neve, they are looking into a board with their technology for us home recordists!!! ie. 1 channel, at least we could get the vocals, bass and guitar sounding right if dubbing them in separately!

Bob: My voice is very good (Steve Perry-etc.), but after recording for a while, you can begin to separate out a voice from it's production. The Beatles were good singers, but their production made them great! Most rappers and rock artists today are "adequate" (if that) singers and performers, but the production on their voices mixed with the instrumentation gets them over.
That's why when you get a Celine/Mariah/Whitney on great equipment they are amazing (But then again this is all subjective, a too-each-his-own kind of thing anyway!) But I believe great production is what it is mostly about (Listen to Hootie)

THANKS TO EVERYONE, WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS!
 
Jimmy Z,

Neve already has a one-channel box to record with. It's called a preamp (1081, 1073, etc.) They also have a 4 channel piece called the V Rack. I would caution you not to reinvent the wheel. The tools are there to record with the greatest fidelity.

If we can't afford to buy it, there are many places that this gear can be rented for a reasonable price. The truth about it is that you seem to already have some reasonable quality gear. Perhaps it's now a matter of practicing the art of recording long enough that you master the elements.

I've heard some great live recordings (jazz) recorded with a Mackie and a DA-88. With good mics and great technique, a master (as this man was) can turn straw into gold. Of course, he has about 40 years of recording experience to back that up. A computer workstation would be a good addition to your mix, but sometimes, rather that better gear, what we need is more time to perfect the art and science of recording.

Rev E
 
Jimmy Z,

Neve already has a one-channel box to record with. It's called a preamp (1081, 1073, etc.) They also have a 4 channel piece called the V Rack. I would caution you not to reinvent the wheel. The tools are there to record with the greatest fidelity.

If we can't afford to buy it, there are many places that this gear can be rented for a reasonable price. The truth about it is that you seem to already have some reasonable quality gear. Perhaps it's now a matter of practicing the art of recording long enough that you master the elements.

I've heard some great live recordings (jazz) recorded with a Mackie and a DA-88. With good mics and great technique, a master (as this man was) can turn straw into gold. Of course, he has about 40 years of recording experience to back that up. A computer workstation would be a good addition to your mix, but sometimes, rather that better gear, what we need is more time to perfect the art and science of recording.

Rev E
 
Rev,

Thanks for the information on the Neve pre-amps, I had heard they were out there. Do you have experience with one? Do they really give you a superior sound than a Mackie 24x8?

The Jazz recording you heard using a Mackie and DA-88 (16 bit), is there anyway I can contact the engineer to either see what I am doing wrong, or some tricks he uses that he can teach me (us)? Especially on vocals which seems to be the hardest thing to record!

Thanks again,

Jimmy Z~
 
Yeah, not to put down the Beatles, but I've heard an out-take or two that were raw vocals and they weren't much to listen to. Add the production, and they are great! I believe you DO have to have some sound and natural talent before you enhance. Trying to sonically doctor a singer like me for example, is like putting lipstick on a pig!
 
Jimmy Z~,

I've heard stuff done with Neve preamps and they sound rich. There's just something there that brings out the nice parts of the music that my ear like to hear. However, there have been a whole bunch of recordings that have been made with inferior gear.

I read in Billboard that Shawn Mullins recorded that song "Everything Will Be Alright (Rockabye)" with a Mackie 8-buss and ADATS. Quincy Jones and Co. recorded Handel's Messiah- A Soulful celebration with ADATs. James Taylor recorded an album that got a Grammy for best engineered record with the first generation of Yamaha 02R's. The point is, skill is far for important than gear. As far as your gear list, I can see nothing in your gearlist that shouldn't be able to get decent results... Better than Demo quality sound.

I haven't listened to any of your stuff, but I would suggest finding a local studio or someone who is an accomplished engineer in your local area. It's important to have someone's physical presence right there to bounce ideas and see what they're doing. Be an apprentice to that engineer for free. Hang around him/her and learn. Ask questions. Keep reading and perfecting the art. The results will come over time. Many great records have been made with lower quality gear than yours. In my opinion, the project/home studio has replaced, for the most part, the apprentices of yesterday.
Thirty years ago, people who wanted to be engineers would start as a janitor/tea boy/do boy in a professional studio. Nowadays, the engineer legends of tomorrow are buying prosumer gear and learning at home or on the small scale. What many of us haven't realized is that it still takes time. Even with $30k worth of gear, the real skill is learning how to use the gear. That, my friend still takes time. That's why it's important to hang out with people who are much, much better than you are. The learning comes quicker that doing it yourself. You can't do the same thing to get different results.

By the way, the room that you record in has a lot to do with the way the vocals will sound. (i.e. wall treatment) Perhaps you could start there.

Rev E
 
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