The potential ability of amateurs

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RawDepth

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Just out of sheer curiosity...

I wonder what would happen if you took an amateur home recording hobbyist, (one who at least cares enough to read and learn about recording equipment and methods,) and put him in a million dollar studio. Given a large variety of high-end gear, a few decent musicians, and a little extra time for a learning curve, would his mixes really end up very much better than those from home?

On the other hand, if you took a well seasoned pro engineer and placed him in that rookie's home with budget gear and a handful of average local musicians, would that mix sound like an "amateur" mix?

Some may ask, what's the point?

I am wondering if many amateur mixes end up sounding poor mostly because the room acoustics and the gear aren't revealing what they should to the engineer's ears. In other words, are the room and gear holding back the mix or is the lack of skill holding back the mix?

RD
 
In my opinion, the answer would be somewhere between the extremes you mentioned. In other words, the amateur using great gear would be able to create a better sounding mix than in his home studio, and the pro using the budget gear would be able to create a good mix but not as good as if he were using his usual top end gear.

What I will say though is that the pro using budget gear would still be able to produce a far better mix than the amateur in the studio, and the mix would be closer to what he normally could do with his great gear. The amateur in the studio would also make a mix closer to what he could do with his budget gear.

In other words, the experience and talent of the pro mixer counts for far more than the gear.
 
I wonder about this too...

being in the category as an amateur I sometimes wonder if a better space/gear would make a difference.. I think it would for me... but only because I work damn hard to learn everything i can..

However that being said good equipment can only take you so far.. you have to have an ear for this business.. I think a seasoned engineer can come to my studio and make my mixes sound like utter crap in comparison. I actually know someone who is a brilliant engineer (for someone who is self taught) with evan less equipment than I do.. I've mentioned him before in another thread i think..

www.myspace.com/oceancitydefender he uses a little behringer mixer going into his stock audio card on his pc with a couple 58's and 57's and that's it.
 
I personally believe the engineer is FAR more important than the gear, and that the musicians are FAR more important than the engineer.

First, in your hypothetical, replace the word "amateur" with the word "chimpanzee". No, that is not meant as a dig on amateurs (or chimps :D), it is just an exaturation to illustrate a point. if you want something less offensive sounding, try replacing the word "amateur" with the word "computer". Either way, the human ability to analyze, react to and adjust to a situation is what's important in the job of audio engineering, and the only way to do that extremely well is with the experience to know what to do.

That said, however, great musicians trump all, IMHO. They make the engineers job so much easier, first of all, that they raise the quality of the recording regardless of who or what is behind the desk. Second of all, if the act is that good, even if one manages to screw the pooch behind the desk, they act will still be worth listening to. OTOH, if you replace the word "musician" with either "chimpanzee" or "computer", it doesn't matter much whether you have a pre-schooler or Roger Nighols behind the desk; the recording won't be worth listening to more than once or twice.

Great tools help great craftsmen be great. Great tools in the hands of an amateur will result in an amateurish job. If one is digging a latrine, even the best tools and craftsmen won't make the hole any prettier or aromatic :).

G.
 
i agree (although I think I'm a little more skilled than a chimpanzee thank you very much)

a great song or preformance will always be a great song or preformance..

hate to sound too cliche but it's true

you can't polish a turd.. and we all get more turds then gems i think. (at least that's been my luck)
 
I posted an example of what someone can do with a small bedroom studio and inexpensive mics and equipment.

Here's a link to a 8 piece Christian Funk group I did a week or so ago:

http://www.myspace.com/jasonglasser

Then look at this thread for the equipment and setup:

http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=2612490&postcount=13

The drum room is roughly 11' by 11', with a 7' ceiling - a converted bedroom in an old mobile home. The control room is the same size - an adjacent bedroom.

I guess this would qualify as a pro using home studio stuff.
 
eeb said:
i agree (although I think I'm a little more skilled than a chimpanzee thank you very much)
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Of that I have no doubt :). Again, just to make sure that I wasn't misunderstood, I didn't mean to compare amateurs with chimps; that was only a purposeful exaggeration, meant just to demonstrate a point.

(OTOH, I have known some professionals who'd throw their feces against the glass :D)

G.
 
I'd guess our reality show winner amateur wouldn't get the best mixes possible from the pro studio even if you give him time to learn the ropes because of the intimidation factor of working with the pro musicians. It's hard enough telling a no-talent local band that they sucked and do it over, what happens when our budding engineer has to tell the Funk Brothers he messed up the mic placement on the last take :confused:
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
(OTOH, I have known some professionals who'd throw their feces against the glass :D)
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At least those engineers give a shit; I've known some engineers who just don't give a shit at all about the music.
 
Harvey Gerst said:
At least those engineers give a shit; I've known some engineers who just don't give a shit at all about the music.
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LOL, good comeback, Harvey :D

G.
 
I'll take a different angle at this. Rather than Glen's Chimpanze, I'm going with the somewhat accomplished home recordist, who's skills are on par with his/her semi-pro equipment, and who has done a minimal amount of acoustical treatment.
I think this home recordist is going to gain quite a bit from the million dollar studio, both from the equipment, and in a big way from the room(s). The pro engineer on the other side of the swap is not going to be as limited by equipment quality as by acoustics and marginal monitoring. Still, the pro will squeeze every bit of Mojo out of the home studio, and the home recordist will not come close to delivering what the studio and it's gear are really capable of. There's too many variables to say who would make the better recording in this scenario, but the smart money would probably be on the real engineer.
 
Here's another angle.

Take the pro musicians, and put them into the small bedroom studio with decent budget gear and room treatment, and common sense and well-around knowledge of recording and mixing (basic mic placement, mixing, etc, all stuff everyone knows here).

Then take the amateur musicians (with their budget instruments), take away the room treatment, and put them into the studio with professional engineers.

What do you think the results would be?
 
Nameless said:
Here's another angle.

Take the pro musicians, and put them into the small bedroom studio with decent budget gear and room treatment, and common sense and well-around knowledge of recording and mixing (basic mic placement, mixing, etc, all stuff everyone knows here).
Click to expand...

"Nebraska"

Then take the amateur musicians (with their budget instruments), take away the room treatment, and put them into the studio with professional engineers.
Click to expand...

Uhh . . . White Stripes :confused:
 
Is this a repeated thread. I remember a discussion along this line last month. Maybe it was on another site. :) Put me in a million dollar studio and I would have it so screwed up !!! :)
 
This question is a complete no-brainer.

Put an amateur in the finest hair salon and give him the best set of clippers, and I doubt he's going to give you anything other than an embarrassing hair cut. But invite a professional hair stylist to your home, and I'm sure you'll still get a pretty decent cut when all is said and done.

Frankly, to a seasoned engineer, the question is somewhat laughable, perhaps mildly insulting to his/her profession.

.
 
There may be slight differences but nothing that really matters. A good engineer or producer or whatever have you can use even a dinky studio with not a ton of money into it and make it sound cool.

Likewise, if someone doesn't mix well, the gear isn't going to save them...the bad recordings might be clearer or crisper, but it'll only make the problems more obvious.

It's all about the ears :) Gear is a nice tool, but that's all it is.
 
Nameless said:
Here's another angle.

Take the pro musicians, and put them into the small bedroom studio with decent budget gear and room treatment, and common sense and well-around knowledge of recording and mixing (basic mic placement, mixing, etc, all stuff everyone knows here).

Then take the amateur musicians (with their budget instruments), take away the room treatment, and put them into the studio with professional engineers.

What do you think the results would be?
Click to expand...

Everyone would drink a lot of coffee and get restless, start punching the walls and shitting all over the place. when that is no longer enough to quench their thirst for chaos, they'll go out to the zoo and gangrape some monkeys ...come on! THINK OF THE MONKEYS!
 
and then yet another angle... is a pro engineer nessisarily working in a top dollar studio? I've been to plenty of great studios with horrible engineers, and plenty of small studios with literal audio wizards behind a computer screen. Then there are the other breed of engineer...who believe in making music by ramming dildos down the throats of walrusses....these guys would do well in neither, they would be better off engineering while parachuting out of a plane with a dildo being rammed into the walrus (also parachuting),, and the other hand punching an old 8-track tape player that's chained via meat hook to the walruse's balls, untill it makes a sound that is good.
 
Well, it looks like a consensus is emerging. To paraphrase something I read elsewhere:

A mediocre engineer recording mediocre musicians will make a mediocre recording no matter where, or with what, he records.

A great engineer with great musicians will make a great recording no matter where, or with what, he records.

My 2¢ (plus sales tax where applicable)
 
RawDepth said:
Just out of sheer curiosity...

I wonder what would happen if you took an amateur home recording hobbyist, (one who at least cares enough to read and learn about recording equipment and methods,) and put him in a million dollar studio. Given a large variety of high-end gear, a few decent musicians, and a little extra time for a learning curve, would his mixes really end up very much better than those from home?

On the other hand, if you took a well seasoned pro engineer and placed him in that rookie's home with budget gear and a handful of average local musicians, would that mix sound like an "amateur" mix?

Some may ask, what's the point?

I am wondering if many amateur mixes end up sounding poor mostly because the room acoustics and the gear aren't revealing what they should to the engineer's ears. In other words, are the room and gear holding back the mix or is the lack of skill holding back the mix?

RD
Click to expand...
Book the studio and send me the date and location and we can find out once and for all.
 
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