The (overly?) clean sound

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dainbramage

dainbramage

Well-known member
So I was listening to The Black Keys album "Magic Potion" and thought to myself "man, that is truly the best sound I've ever heard recorded". So I went along to check out how they got their sound primarily wondering what amps they use. I found this:

"We like the sound of odd rooms. It's got concrete floors and walls. The upstairs floor is the ceiling. The mixing desk and computer are on top of the tool desk built by the old guy who used to live there. You can hear all of that. Lots of new records have no individuality to the sound. I wanted it to sound like a band in the basement of a house in the Midwest."

I'm starting to think maybe acoustic treatment and perfect rooms is not really what I need. Any thoughts on this?
 
I don't know what you need, so I have no thoughts about it.
 
Well...I don't know how much the room alone will make it a "clean" sound (which to me, refers mostly to how much distortion is being used or not)...but yeah, I think you can do a lot in acoustically untreated spaces and still have it sound really good...all depends on the source, the mic positioning, and the music style, arrangement and production flavor.

There are some situations where I think folks make their rooms too dead, and then try to make up for it all digitally with FX...which is again, OK for some things, but may not work for others.

If you want that old-school, retro vibe....ala the '50s and early '60s....then you need to employ some of those techniques deliberately to get the right sound.
The main thing about acoustic treatment for the home-rec guys is that most are using their space as a combi tracking, mixing, mastering space...so it's not the same as when you just consider tracking in live spaces.

I've already been toying with the idea of adding some more traps in my studio...but only to use when I mix. They would be hung behind my mix position, but easily taken down so they are not in the way and so that there not as much treatment.
Some pro studios install a variety of panels that can change the wall surfaces from soft to hard and in-between...that way the character of the room isn't locked in to just one sonic flavor.
 
miroslav said:
Well...I don't know how much the room alone will make it a "clean" sound (which to me, refers mostly to how much distortion is being used or not)...
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You're right, I guess I meant sterile sound.

miroslav said:
but yeah, I think you can do a lot in acoustically untreated spaces and still have it sound really good...all depends on the source, the mic positioning, and the music style, arrangement and production flavor.
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Yeah, I suppose the needs are very differerent considering perhaps especially style and flavor.

miroslav said:
If you want that old-school, retro vibe....ala the '50s and early '60s....then you need to employ some of those techniques deliberately to get the right sound.
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I do want that vibe for most of my electric guitar based music and am curious about the techniques. Any ideas about that? Different mic positionings? I just watched the movie Sweet and Lowdown and saw they had their condensers hanging around over the musicians. That might not be very accurate though and it was depicting the 1930s. Something like that?
 
Maybe it is just me, but I would not characterize the "Magic Potion" album as having a retro or 50's/60's vibe, nor would I call other albums sterile by comparison. To me, the whole album sounds heavily colored by the recording space and has guitar tracks that have more heft and prominence -- and cover more of the frequency spectrum -- than some other guitar-based albums. That color works for the quoted purpose intended by the Black Keys, but they also got away with it because of the minimal instrumentation used. Putting those same drums and guitar in tracks with a bass, another guitar, or maybe keys, horns or something else would likely get way too cluttered and muddy fast and have one spinning the EQ dials all day long to try to make things fit. It reminds me of my younger days when I would be twiddling my guitar amps to sound big, thick and bold when I played solo at home, and the sound man at the gig would be trying to thin my sound out on the board so that it fit with the rest of the band. Asking for recommendations on techniques and positioning is not going to be too helpful unless you give some idea of whether your "electric guitar based music" means a two-man drums-and-guitar band like the Keys or something else.
 
miroslav said:
The main thing about acoustic treatment for the home-rec guys is that most are using their space as a combi tracking, mixing, mastering space...so it's not the same as when you just consider tracking in live spaces.
.
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This ^^^^^^

Very few of us have a tracking room and a separate mixing room. You tailor your do-it-all room to how you want it and make do.
 
toddyjoe said:
... they also got away with it because of the minimal instrumentation used. Putting those same drums and guitar in tracks with a bass, another guitar, or maybe keys, horns or something else would likely get way too cluttered and muddy fast....
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Yeah....it's quite amazing how much instrumentation and arrangement goes toward production sound, and is sometimes overlooked, so people will work hard trying to get a "sound" and their instrumentation and arrangement simply isn't suited for the sound they want to get.

I think with "Magic Potion"...while the sound isn't really a heavy '50s/'60s vibe tonally....instrumentation-wise the sparsenes of the productions and music style does mimic a lot of stuff from back in the day.
I think if they simply added some natural big hall ambiance, it would sound a lot more like '50s/'60s stuff....but they tend to do things pretty small room & dry on that album.
I like their dark, distorted guitar tones.... :)
 
toddyjoe said:
That color works for the quoted purpose intended by the Black Keys, but they also got away with it because of the minimal instrumentation used. Putting those same drums and guitar in tracks with a bass, another guitar, or maybe keys, horns or something else would likely get way too cluttered and muddy fast and have one spinning the EQ dials all day long to try to make things fit.
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You know, I think you're absolutely right. I too have dialed in great tones only to find that it becomes a mess when I add drums (well, as of yet MIDI-drums) and especially bass.

toddyjoe said:
Asking for recommendations on techniques and positioning is not going to be too helpful unless you give some idea of whether your "electric guitar based music" means a two-man drums-and-guitar band like the Keys or something else.
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Good question. I am leaning more and more towards writing minimalist music like that, but then again I have my days where I just want to layer everything from multiple guitars, bass, djembe, tamboka, harmonica, egg etc. I guess an untreated room is better for the minimalist approach then. I also record a lot of acoustic stuff with a couple of LDCs and I figure treatment is vital for that.

Too bad my musical preferences change from day to day, from week to week, but I guess most of us are like that.

I think some of the 50s/60s vibe musically is, in addition to the things miroslav mentioned, also in their rough approach. They tend to ignore or even embrace the little mistakes and that makes the album sound very real, raw and down-to-earth.
 
miroslav said:
.instrumentation-wise the sparsenes of the productions and music style does mimic a lot of stuff from back in the day. [...] but they tend to do things pretty small room & dry on that album.

I like their dark, distorted guitar tones.... :)
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I'm also starting to think maybe the drums on that album tend to be at such low volume because the guitar is so thick. I love that tone but I can't figure out what amp/amps they are using. I know their earlier stuff was recorded with old Ampeg Geminis, but the tone sounds quite different on this one. That fantastic dark distortion is like soulbalsam.
 
Try a decent 5E3 type amp or some derivative that uses 6V6 tubes and that breaks up early....Neil Young uses a Fender 5E3 Tweed amp and gets a lot of those growly, low tones.

I have a Tungsten Creme Cortez amp that was inspired by the Neil Young amp (hence the name "Cortez" which is a song on Neil Young's "Zuma" album, "Cortez the Killer"). The Cortez can really get some great low-end distortion going without a lot of effort. That's what it's wired for.
I also have a Savage Macht 12x that also has such a mean growl to it when pushed, dark but real a sweet sounding....it's also a 6V6 amp somewhat like a 5E3 type.

I would never sell either of these...even though I don't use them on a lot of tracks, but I love playing them and there's some things that they just work on well. They do eat up a lot of your sonic space...so they would be good in a minimalist setting.
 
miroslav said:
a Fender 5E3 Tweed amp and gets a lot of those growly, low tones.
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It just so happens that there is a used Edgar D-Lux amp for a very reasonable price available from a norwegian seller (shipping amps from overseas cost a fortune so we don't see a lot of good offers here). It is based on the Fender 5E3 amp. Features a Celestion 12 (C12R) speaker.

About the amp

I was told it is unique, and it has a different design from the one in the review in that it is not a combo (as in this picture), but has a top and a cabinet. Now it is not possible to try it before buying but do you think it would be something to consider for my needs?
 
If you think it's healthy...and the price is reasonable for your budget....why not.

The head/cab setup is fine, and I think it's more useful for recording, since you can easily use a different cab with the head.
The combo amps are nice for grab-n-go gigs....you have your guitar in one hand and the combo in the other.

You can also check out eBay, as the 5E3 circuit has been done to death by many amp builders...so you might find one in your area or someone who ships internationally without a major cost.
Also...you might find just a 5E3 type amp chassis....and then see about getting a head cabinet made for it etc....whatever is easiest for you....but I like 5E3 type amps, and they are going to give you that low-end growl and lots of feedback and grind if you want it.
 
Great, Miroslav. Thanks a lot for your valuable input and advice.
 
dainbramage said:
So I was listening to The Black Keys album "Magic Potion" and thought to myself "man, that is truly the best sound I've ever heard recorded". So I went along to check out how they got their sound primarily wondering what amps they use. I found this:

"We like the sound of odd rooms. It's got concrete floors and walls. The upstairs floor is the ceiling. The mixing desk and computer are on top of the tool desk built by the old guy who used to live there. You can hear all of that. Lots of new records have no individuality to the sound. I wanted it to sound like a band in the basement of a house in the Midwest."

I'm starting to think maybe acoustic treatment and perfect rooms is not really what I need. Any thoughts on this?
Click to expand...

This reminds me of the famous bands quote "We did our latest album in our home studio" Then all the bedroom studio people on the forum think they can get the same sound and same results.

What the famous band forgot to mention was that the home studio they recorded in has 2 million dollars worth of gear in it.

Alan.
 
witzendoz said:
This reminds me of the famous bands quote "We did our latest album in our home studio" Then all the bedroom studio people on the forum think they can get the same sound and same results.

What the famous band forgot to mention was that the home studio they recorded in has 2 million dollars worth of gear in it.

Alan.
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Lol. Right? Like that stupid Foo Fighters album. "We did it in Dave's garage, but we had to move the Ferrari, Bentley, and crates of gold bars out to the driveway first".
 
There's no simple answer to the original question. Yes you can make good recordings in the strangest of places--but that doesn't mean EVERY room is going to sound good. An awful lot of domestic rooms without treatment sound hollow and boxy. The "safe" choice is to have acoustic treatment--it never adds anything to the recording but it never detracts either.

However, if you have time to experiment, you can sometimes find some real gems of locations. For example, outside Studio 1 in the place I worked for many years was a five story fire escape stair well. To the ear it was hollow and echoey; to a mic it did wonderful things to some vocals (mainly female) and also acoustic guitar. For whatever reason, vocals were better on the first landing, guitars on the second.
 
I think the best thing to do in a case like this is let someone go ahead and record in their un-treated room, throw mics anywhere, and see how easy it is. Let them see if it's as magical as they hoped it would be.

There is so much more to these "pro" stories on just recording "in the garage". But everyone would rather prefer to convince themselves that (what seems like) the easy way should work just as well every time.

Having said that, recording in a live/un-treated room isn't revolutionary by any stretch. As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, there's nothing wrong with an un-treated tracking room if it's the right sound for the track. But have fun mixing down with everything bouncing off the cement walls of your garage. That's a different story.
 
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RAMI said:
But have fun mixing down with everything bouncing off the cement walls of your garage. That's a different story.
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Yeah....an empty garage or basement just ain't gonna work. For anyone here who was in a band, I'm sure your first practices were done in someone's garage or basement...and you remember how crappy it sounded.

Now...AFA using other spaces that haven't been specifically treated for music...there's all kinds of possibilities.
You can track in a typical living room and it might sound pretty good, because most living spaces are full of furniture and stuff, so that acts a bit like treatment, but of course, each room most likely will have some acoustic problem that will need some attention. Sometimes a few simple changes or additions of some acoustic panels and what not could be enough to do the trick, but the recordings will always have the sound of that room(s), so just make sure it's what you want.
 
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