The Only Rack Equipment I'll Use from now on

  • Thread starter Thread starter MadMax
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NL5 said:
Why do you need D/A/D to run a compressor? It can be used before the converters, or if you mix analog, you just patch it in..........you just need two TT cables! :D

I said "maximize" use. Sure you can use it on the way in, but if you are considering plugs vs. hardware, it clouds the debate to discuss analog vs. digital media or mixing at the same time. That is a cost:benefit discussion for several dozen other threads.

I still say if your mixes suck with plugs, they are going to suck with hardware and analog summing. Honestly, the UAD-1 stuff is so good, it shouldn't hold back the average homereccer. I do not hear stuff in the Clinic that would have sounded good if only they had used a real Fairchild rather than the plug. I do hear stuff that maybe never should have used plugs in the first place . . .

I express no opinion on production at the highest level, beyond what I have cited above.
 
mshilarious said:
I said "maximize" use. Sure you can use it on the way in, but if you are considering plugs vs. hardware, it clouds the debate to discuss analog vs. digital media or mixing at the same time. That is a cost:benefit discussion for several dozen other threads.

I still say if your mixes suck with plugs, they are going to suck with hardware and analog summing. Honestly, the UAD-1 stuff is so good, it shouldn't hold back the average homereccer. I do not hear stuff in the Clinic that would have sounded good if only they had used a real Fairchild rather than the plug. I do hear stuff that maybe never should have used plugs in the first place . . .

I express no opinion on production at the highest level, beyond what I have cited above.

Ooops, I read right through "maximize". :embarrassed;

I agree with everything you said, in fact that is what I originally said in this thread. Hardware is still quite a bit better, but plugins will not "ruin" a mix either.....
 
NL5 said:
I agree with everything you said, in fact that is what I originally said in this thread. Hardware is still quite a bit better, but plugins will not "ruin" a mix either.....

You know, if you pro boys were smart, you'd be on prosumer forums saying stuff like "hardware sucks ass, sell it all to me at a loss" :D
 
mshilarious said:
You know, if you pro boys were smart, you'd be on prosumer forums saying stuff like "hardware sucks ass, sell it all to me at a loss" :D


Well I'm not really a pro......not too smart either...... :D
 
Would this descusion even matter if you were recording a death metal band? :D
 
hoops said:
Would this descusion even matter if you were recording a death metal band? :D

You'd be surprised- it might well be. Getting that stuff to sound good is a hard job. (and not because I think it sounds bad... its just hard to capture well)

-C
 
Aren't a lot of modern mainstream analog effects processors designed to work digitally? I mean they convert the incoming analog to digital, run it through a processing chip, and then convert it back to analog. Even though it is analog rack gear, that little processing chip is simply crunching numbers to modify the signal the same as a plug-in would.

If so, then how do they get it to sound better?

(Or, is this discussion only about designs that are 100% analog?)

RD
 
Chris Shaeffer said:
You'd be surprised- it might well be. Getting that stuff to sound good is a hard job. (and not because I think it sounds bad... its just hard to capture well)

-C

I agree completely! It's much more difficult for me to mix all those high levels than it is to mix anything else.
 
RawDepth said:
Aren't a lot of modern mainstream analog effects processors designed to work digitally? I mean they convert the incoming analog to digital, run it through a processing chip, and then convert it back to analog. Even though it is analog rack gear, that little processing chip is simply crunching numbers to modify the signal the same as a plug-in would.

If so, then how do they get it to sound better?

(Or, is this discussion only about designs that are 100% analog?)

RD

The purists are talking about 100% analog, and when I started this thread, I was talking about what I personally have decided to do. My whole point was that digital plugs have gotten good enough to compete with the old skool stuff. Even for professional major label release stuff. I later said that the old analog stuff will fade away the same way vinyl records have. And it's not just because digital is better, it's a marketing decision by the manufacturers that's going to trickle down to the end user. So I still stick with my prediction that in 5 years, even the big boys are going to be recording and mixing ITB.

But what do I know?
 
Ironklad Audio said:
yea, but it seems like the magic of a lot of outboard stuff comes from the headroom being eaten up

do that in digital land, and you get shitty clipping

Of course, but the better plugs have modelled the analog OD characteristics into the plug before you hit digital clipping.

Xtatic has kind of turned my thread into a debate, but my point was that for me, the analog vs digital is now a choice between flavors. There is no longer a better or worse. I really believe that people who are used to the old analog sound will always like it better and defend it 'till the end. But we're now at a point where the younger guys will have only used digital comps and eq's and I wonder if they'll think the analog stuff sounds as good?
 
mshilarious said:
You know, if you pro boys were smart, you'd be on prosumer forums saying stuff like "hardware sucks ass, sell it all to me at a loss" :D

Don't need to, folks are doing that already. :D
 
MadMax said:
So I still stick with my prediction that in 5 years, even the big boys are going to be recording and mixing ITB.
That's just so wrong (NFW)... guess we'll just have to revisit this again in five years
 
MadMax said:
So I still stick with my prediction that in 5 years, even the big boys are going to be recording and mixing ITB.
MOFO Pro said:
That's just so wrong (NFW)... guess we'll just have to revisit this again in five years


They already are. Several #1 country hits at least. Steven Holy's "Brand New Girlfriend" was mixed 100% ITB.
 
NL5 said:
They already are. Several #1 country hits at least. Steven Holy's "Brand New Girlfriend" was mixed 100% ITB.

Well, mixing and recording are 2 different things. What we're really talking about here is the tracking process. ITB mixes are commonplace now.
 
MadMax said:
Well, mixing and recording are 2 different things. What we're really talking about here is the tracking process. ITB mixes are commonplace now.


How do you track ITB? Ton's of people record to computer - that is more common than mixing ITB. The only thing that I can think of would be virtual instruments - is that what you mean?
 
I was talking about the hardware part. Of course tons of people track to disk, but what I assumed Xtatic was talking about was things like tracking thru an 1176 and a La2a before it goes to disk. Tone shaping before you hit the converters.
That's what I meant when I said recording and mixing.
 
I never inteneded for this to become some big debate Max, but you made some strong statements that I see as unfounded. You made statements about equipment that you have never even used, so I find it hard to accept the overall premise. It is true that many people do mix ITB currently. However, that does not mean that a bunch of outboard gear was not used in the process. It is very common practice for engineers to use all sorts of outboard equipment during the tracking phase as well as the mixing phase. In fact, of the many high dollar engineers and producers I have met, comping and EQ'ing during tracking is much more common than not.

You certainly have your right to your opinion. I even find some valid poiints in it. I just have a hard time when you reference things that you have no experience with. I know that many of the digital plugs have attempted to model some of the OD and harmonic distortion properties of the original analog outboard, but none of them have managed to do that all that effectively. Once again though, I certainly don't see a lack of analog outboard equipment to mean that great work can't be done. When using the plugins as opposed to the actual outboard though you have to think and work differently. They just don't sound the same and don't do some of the things that the outboard does.

As far as analog outboard being gone in 5 years, those same predictions were made 10 years ago. They were made again 5 years ago. The truth of the matter is the digital has found its way into the industry and I do not see it going anywhere, but it has shown no evidence of forcing outboard gear out. In fact, just the opposite has happened. I agree that the large format analog console is losing market share, but it won't disappear. The fact that many people are mixing ITB has more likely increased outboard sales. A project that is done completely ITB at the bigger studios actually increases the demand for analog outboard. Now all of a sudden you have to have more outboard EQ's and comps to get the sound right so that you CAN effectively mix ITB. When you are sitting in front of an SSL 9000 you have 100 channels of quality EQ's and usable comps built right in. When you are sitting in front of a Digidesign ICON, you have to have racks behind you to get the tracking phase down as planned. Look at the market, outboard comps and EQ's and preamps are flourishing more now than ever before. We have more companies, more products, and higher sales in those areas than ever. I do not think I would view a market in such an upswing as a market in danger of failing. At least not in the next 5 years.

Like I said before, my biggest issue in this thread is when you make assumptions about the quality and usability and similarity of products that you have never used. It is misleading and inaccurate. If you choose to go completely ITB, that is OK. I find that to be a decision though, and not a qualitative reference to other things.
 
I think a more likely scenario than high quality outboard gear being gone in XX years, is that as PC processing power keeps increasing it will allow more accurate and detailed algorithms finally enough to reproduce some of the subtle effects of said outboard gear (harmonic distortion for example).

Whether that causes some sort of revolution in recording and music production, who knows?

I mean a SIR1010 reverb , with a really nice impulse might suprise you if you have never heard it. Not that it is better than any outboard stuff you can get, but I have seen it suprise people who had not realized how far VST based reverb has come.
 
amra said:
I mean a SIR1010 reverb , with a really nice impulse might suprise you if you have never heard it. Not that it is better than any outboard stuff you can get, but I have seen it suprise people who had not realized how far VST based reverb has come.
Not really the best example... Outboard Reverbs are all digital effects to start with...
 
Xtatic; I'm not here to argue either, but I don't think I ever said anything negative about analog other than I can forsee a limited lifespan for it. I'm just making the observation that plug in quality is now on a comparable level with outboard gear and now the choice is in the hands of the engineer, and I have chosen to not break the bank to have racks full of stuff I can do with plug ins.
 
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