The New Tone Thread

[Lt. Bob]

That's the center of the speaker? Jeez. How close?

Keep in mind that the center of a speaker is usually the brightest placement, but it also sometimes can sound like what you have here because the center of the speaker doesn't actually make any sound. If you pop the dustcap off a speaker, there's a hole back there. There's nothing there. .

no, that's not quite right.
yes, there's a hole back there in most speakers to help airflow around the voice coil to prevent overheating.
But the dustcap is a part of the cone and moves with it.
Since sound is produced by the speaker cone moving back and forth and pushing air .... the dustcap absolutely makes sound and just as much as the cone.
If you took off the dustcap the center wouldn't make sound, but with it in place ...... it's simply a part of the cone.

In fact ... you can alter the sound quite a bit with the material the dustcap is made from.
Speakers with that shiny aluminum dustcap ( like JBLs used to have ) are super bright and spiky.
When I get my JBL D110s reconed I'm gonna make them use paper dustcaps to tame them a bit.

 

[Greg_L]

no, that's not quite right.
yes, there's a hole back there in most speakers to help airflow around the voice coil to prevent overheating.
But the dustcap is a part of the cone and moves with it.
Since sound is produced by the speaker cone moving back and forth and pushing air .... the dustcap absolutely makes sound and just as much as the cone.
If you took off the dustcap the center wouldn't make sound, but with it in place ...... it's simply a part of the cone.

In fact ... you can alter the sound quite a bit with the material the dustcap is made from.
Speakers with that shiny aluminum dustcap ( like JBLs used to have ) are super bright and spiky.
When I get my JBL D100s reconed I'm gonna make them use paper dustcaps to tame them a bit.

Yes I get all that. I don't think I'm explaining it correctly. With a dustcap there, yes it moves and it will make sound. The "meat" though comes from the cone outside of the dustcap. When those stronger waves come together it can create like a little phase pocket in front of the dustcap. It's kind of like a fan blowing air. The hub doesn't do a whole lot, the blades pump out the wind.

This is not my "science", I'm just regurgitating what a Celestion rep and speaker reconer has told me.

 

[Lt. Bob]

mmmmmmm ..... I can see that I guess ...... like eddys in a stream.
I don't think I agree with them about there being 'no sound' but I can see where all those waves might cancel out some in the very center right in front of the cap.

 

[JDOD]

Cheers guys, I think I just need to do some proper experiements with this and actually record the results by marking the front of the cabinet so I can remember what I was doing instead of fucking about with mic placement every time I set my gear up.

 

[Greg_L]

mmmmmmm ..... I can see that I guess ...... like eddys in a stream.
I don't think I agree with them about there being 'no sound' but I can see where all those waves might cancel out some in the very center right in front of the cap.

That's generally the way I understand it, and my own "testing" confirms it on certain speakers. Up close, right in the middle, the signal can be hollow and weak sometimes. I can keep the mic centered, but move it back off the speaker some and the recorded sound will thicken up and get stronger, even peaking the meters higher. This effect seems to be more prominent on my small dustcap speakers, like the Greenbacks and Vintage 30s. It doesn't seem to matter so much on speakers with larger dustcaps.

Cheers guys, I think I just need to do some proper experiements with this and actually record the results by marking the front of the cabinet so I can remember what I was doing instead of fucking about with mic placement every time I set my gear up.

Yes, this.

There's also the school of thought that you place the mic and tweak the amp to make that placement work. I don't subscribe to that school of thought, but it can work and probably yield some good results. You might not like the sound in the room though.

 

[JDOD]

That's generally the way I understand it, and my own "testing" confirms it on certain speakers. Up close, right in the middle, the signal can be hollow and weak sometimes. I can keep the mic centered, but move it back off the speaker some and the recorded sound will thicken up and get stronger, even peaking the meters higher. This effect seems to be more prominent on my small dustcap speakers, like the Greenbacks and Vintage 30s. It doesn't seem to matter so much on speakers with larger dustcaps.


Yes, this.

There's also the school of thought that you place the mic and tweak the amp to make that placement work. I don't subscribe to that school of thought, but it can work and probably yield some good results. You might not like the sound in the room though.

Yeah, I'm not up for that. I want to get the mic to pick up a decent version of the sound I can hear in the room. Two reasons - 1, it will be a live sound, 2, it will make the recording process more enjoyable.

I tried my amp through an Orange 2x12 with V30s in it at lunchtime today using my normal settings - sounded great. I was flicking back and forth between the V30 and the internal speaker. Made quite a big difference.

 

[JDOD]

Might have diagnosed the problem - this speaker has a fucking massive dust cap!

 

[Greg_L]

Lol. That's not a problem. Speakers are like titties - some have big dinner plate sized dustcaps, some have tiny little dime sized dustcaps. They're all good.

 

[Tadpui]

...and if they start to deform too badly, it's time to get them reconed

 

[JDOD]

Lol. That's not a problem. Speakers are like titties - some have big dinner plate sized dustcaps, some have tiny little dime sized dustcaps. They're all good.

True. Personally, I'm quite partial to a large areola. What I meant was, 'cos I wasn't aware how big the dust cap was I was probably micing partially, if not completely inside it.

This clip is on the edge of the actual dust cap - just the chorus rhythm re-done. Its still a little harsh but a lot better (although my ears are fucking ringing now!)View attachment Chorus Tone Test.mp3

 

[Greg_L]

That is a little better. Take some mids out of it and see if it tightens up the cloudiness.

 

[JDOD]

That is a little better. Take some mids out of it and see if it tightens up the cloudiness.

Yeah, I will do some more fucking about with the eq on Wednesday. At least now I am getting a fairly accurate representation of what I'm getting in the room.

 

[RAMI]

OK, another kick at the can.

Been working on the guitar sound for this like a motherfucker. Also, I finally added drums, so it won't sound so annoying with that drum machine.

Are the guitar tones better? I think they are, but I'm not sure what if I'm hearing what I think I'm hearing any more.

 

[miroslav]

With a dustcap there, yes it moves and it will make sound. The "meat" though comes from the cone outside of the dustcap. When those stronger waves come together it can create like a little phase pocket in front of the dustcap. It's kind of like a fan blowing air. The hub doesn't do a whole lot, the blades pump out the wind.

This is not my "science", I'm just regurgitating what a Celestion rep and speaker reconer has told me.

This guy from Eminence Speakers also gives some clear answers about dust caps.
As he points out...while they make no sound, they can/do color the sound, so they are an integral part of the speakers response/tone/

Dust Caps: "The Deal on Dust Caps" by Anthony Lucas - 300guitars.com

I've had to repair some rubbing voice coils which can sound really nasty, but if repaired, the speaker can be as good as new.
I used a method that was explained to me on the phone by the late Ted Weber, of Weber speakers.
It involved some nail polish remover and a typical index card. It was a total MacGyver process but very simple and effective.
Anyway...it also involved the removal of the dust cap, and then replacing with a new one...so I got a fist hand look at "the hole", and I learned what effect the dust caps have on the speakers...besides keeping the dust out.

 

[miroslav]

OK, another kick at the can.

Been working on the guitar sound for this like a motherfucker. Also, I finally added drums, so it won't sound so annoying with that drum machine.

Are the guitar tones better? I think they are, but I'm not sure what if I'm hearing what I think I'm hearing any more.

I think that's some pretty good sounding guitar tones.

The only one I don't like...is at the start at 00:10 and again at 00:23...that little single note lick thing.
The tone is kinda dinky-plinky compared to the other guitar tones...but maybe that's intentional, having that contrast..?
If I was recording it...I would go for a tone that has some more wail-n-bite on those licks...because it's all by itself, and it should really jump out.
Just my $0.02

 

[RAMI]

I think that's some pretty good sounding guitar tones.

The only one I don't like...is at the start at 00:10 and again at 00:23...that little single note lick thing.
The tone is kinda dinky-plinky compared against the other guitar tones...but maybe that's intentional, having that contrast..?
If I was recording it...I would go for a tone that has some more wail-n-bite on those licks...if that makes any sense.

OK, well at least I'm getting there. Thanx a lot, Miro.

Yeah, that little clickity-pick thing is sort of meant to sound a little chirpy. I played it with the end of my pick and wanted it to sound kind of thin. I know what you're saying, though. If anything, I might have it happen too many times, which is why I didn't do it before the last solo. Maybe I can find one or two other places where I can get rid of it. Maybe it will make it more of a "novelty" when it does happen.

Thanx man.

 

[jonny deep]

Yeah, I'm not up for that. I want to get the mic to pick up a decent version of the sound I can hear in the room.

Have you considered that the sound in the room isn't the same as the sound down at the speaker where you put the mic? If you stick your ear up to the speaker, it will sound different, and that's the sound your mic will be picking up.

 

[JDOD]

Have you considered that the sound in the room isn't the same as the sound down at the speaker where you put the mic? If you stick your ear up to the speaker, it will sound different, and that's the sound your mic will be picking up.

Yeah, I know that.. Which is why my ears were ringing like a motherfucker after half an hour.

I've got a good approximation of what I can hear now though.

 

[jonny deep]

Yeah, I know that.. Which is why my ears were ringing like a motherfucker after half an hour.

I've got a good approximation of what I can hear now though.

Furry muff, hadn't seen it mentioned in the last few pages catching up with this thread - didn't want you to be tearing your hair out unnecessarily.

 

[JDOD]

Furry muff, hadn't seen it mentioned in the last few pages catching up with this thread - didn't want you to be tearing your hair out unnecessarily.

Yeah, I had some space this evening to play with tones at high volume. Mainly messing with mic placement but will have another session in a few days working on specifics with the eq, I'll start with what Greg said and dial back some of the mids and go from there.