The infernal rented apartment thread.

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The Ghost of FM

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June 1st, I'm moving to an all concrete modern apartment building built in the mid 60's.

My lease states that I am responsible for any and all damage that I do to the place and that includes drilling holes that damage pipes and wiring so I am in a state of paranoia about setting up anything in there that requires traditional construction methods already discussed at length in many threads here.

My question is, keeping a zero structural damage regime in place, what methods of reducing transmission between my studio and my neighbors is open and semi-viable to me?

I realize that I will have to work at quieter levels and not make use of subs that will extend the bass down to the 30Hz region that would go right through the building and I plan on using a smaller pair of bookshelf speakers to mix on which don't produce anything much below 50Hz.

Any ideas out there or more specifically, practical applications from other apartment dwellers who are in a similar boat to me?

Cheers! :)
 
turn it up louder......add a 12" sub and buy a marshall full stack that goes to 12 on the volume.

that shoud be enough to drive your neighbors out. then you dont have to worry about them.

;-) hehe

cheers!
 
Hi
I'm in a similar situation. What I've done is improved the accuracy of the sound in the room, this has also lowered the amount going through to next door.

I built 2 1meter square panels. Attached thick acoustic foam (3") and put these on stands (just 2 bits of wood on each with a brace in the middle). These stand in the rear of my monitoring room and soak up the waves.

This way they can be moved into position for recording too and just rest against the wall!

Also, isolate your speakers. If you can use posh speaker stands do, or for about $60 you can get Aurelex MoPads. These are just foam seats for the speakers which stop the vibrations from going down to the floor and shaking the walls. They also make your monitoring much tighter.


I hope this helps... It made a world of difference to me!
Joe
 
Thanks for your suggestions, Joe. :)

I do have some office room-divider privacy panels that are a wood frame construction, covered with mineral wool and fabric over that. Each panel is 30 x 68 and I have 6 of those. Then I have two more, same construction, that are 15 x 68 and a last one which is 30 x 60 but seems to be significantly lighter then the others so, I suspect it only has a foam filling but I don't know as I would have to cut the material cover to find out and don't want to damage it.

As for speaker stands, I do have a pair of higher end stands made by Target, which is a UK manufacturer. These are a steel square construction which I have filled with 60 pounds of lead shot and they have spiked feet and spiked toppers where the speakers sit on the top plate. I believe they're good at stopping bass transmission through the floor as the spikes are good at de-coupling them.

I also have a very heavy and thick 100% wool, Persian rug, 9 x 11 for the floor and hopefully it will be good for reducing foot noise down below and shortening the RT60 reverb characteristics of the room.

I was thinking about putting a rubber gasket on the door to the room to help stop a bit of transmission through the air gap around the door and will do that as well on the main door to the apartment.

We'll see if that helps a bit or not?

Cheers! :)
 
Wow! :eek:

No-one can say you're not trying!!

I'd say give it a go on the door and if anyone complains tell them to buggar off!

As long as you're not opening a club in there it shouldn't cause a problem. :D


Maybe you could speak to your neibours and see if you could find a comfortable level all round? Depends on where you live... If I tried that I'd be dead in seconds!

Good luck man! :D
 
Mark7 said:
I live in a flat. I record very quietly :D
What is the construction characteristics of your flat?

Older brick exterior and wood/plasterboard/drywall floor and ceilings? Or all concrete like mine?

I'm curious what other people with similar construction to my place are experiencing with regard to sound leakage to and from their apartments.

Also, does anyone have any accurate STC numbers on poured concrete walls, floors and ceilings? 2", 4", 6", 9"?

Cheers! :)
 
The Ghost of FM said:
What is the construction characteristics of your flat?

Older brick exterior and wood/plasterboard/drywall floor and ceilings? Or all concrete like mine?

I'm curious what other people with similar construction to my place are experiencing with regard to sound leakage to and from their apartments.

Also, does anyone have any accurate STC numbers on poured concrete walls, floors and ceilings? 2", 4", 6", 9"?

Cheers! :)

Concrete is a dandy barrier, GOFM.
 
Well, they're made of wood. You can tell when you hit them.

Except the outer walls. They're wood on the inside and concrete on the outside.
 
How about some gobos on wheels that you can position around louder instruments when you're recording? An iso box for guitar/bass cabinets would help as well.
 
Hey Ghost. The best thing you can do is KNOW what at what level your neighbors begin to HEAR! Maybe you can introduce yourself to your neighbors and ask them to help identify the point at which Low Frequency transmission occurs. Maybe conduct a test with some bass heavy music. I wouldn't even worry about mid or high hz. But once you know at what level/hz, then you have something to work with. And actually, thats the whole point. Why try to prevent transmission if the existing transmission loss is already good enough for the level you monitor at.

BTW, here is the deal. Even though the actual apartment shell is concrete, is there a layer of drywall over the concrete? Most likely there is. If so, most likely it is either furred out or even maybe a double wall. I've seen it. Ask the building manager if he knows anything. If it is furred out or a double wall, then the walls will be whats known as a THREE LEAF system. That means, one leaf(drywall) on your side of the partition wall, an airgap, the second leaf(concrete), another airgap, and the third leaf(neighbors drywall). IF this is indeed the typical scenario to ALL of the apartment PERIMETER walls, this implys something. Normally, TWO leaf systems will perform MUCHO better than a THREE LEAF system, as systems with TWO airgaps create a double airspring/resonant system, which allows transmission to occur at a HIGHER frequency and lower STC. Believe it or not. Tests have confirmed this. So even though the inner leaf is concrete, transmission may occur at a lower volume and higher frequency than expected. This is why its BEST to know exactly at what level(dba) transmission occurs, which only your neighbors can tell you.

Personally, I wouldn't depend on those spiked steel stands, even though they are filled with shot. This is the reason, EVEN if, they are loaded with mass, there is AIR between the shot balls, Resonance can still be transferred to points, which means structural transmission can still occur at that resonant frequency, even though you may not hear it. What I would suggest is MASSIVE stands which will dampen the vibration. Maybe not as elegant, although you could build a screen around them, I would use concrete blocks or cubeical concrete piers, or even those 2" thick x 12" square patio steps, glued together with concrete adhesive. Then decouple the speakers from the blocks with a layer of 1/2" or 1" rigid fiberglass. The 1/2" stuff can be found at any Home improvement place. They sell DROP IN fiberglass acoustical ceiling tiles, with a vinyl face on one side. Just peel that off. All you need is one 2'x4' panel. Even complete rooms are now being floated on fiberglass isolators. You could even drape fabric over the whole thing to cover them. Let me tell you how I know this is so.

A few years ago, a Belgium acoustician told me a story of a test they did at a university. They built a ROOM WITHIN A ROOM, whereby BOTH the outer and inner shell was poured with 12" thick concrete, with a 3" airgap between them. The inner shell was floated, and both shells had an access where they could enter the inner shell. These access's were sealed AIR TIGHT when closed. With witness's placed around the shell at 2 meters, a 9mm pistol blank was fired from within. NO ONE heard anything. Then, through this access, a small dowel was wedged into the airgap, as such it TOUCHED both the inner shell and outer shell at a tangent to the diameter. Then a small portable radio was placed inside and the access's closed. With volume at normal listening level, it could CLEARLY be heard by all witness's. Decoupling is not a myth. Even points can transmit ALL frequencies via structural transmission. Not only that, but concrete will transmit FASTER, and FURTHER through a building than air. Ths is why your first line of defense against transmission in a concrete building is DECOUPLING your speakers.

The next is positioning your speakers so that your REAR WALL is an interior partition wall. It will recieve the first reflection WAVEFRONT, which has the most energy, AND is the farthest from the speakers direct sound. DIFFRACTED around the speakers behind them is far weaker, although at high db levels may not make a difference. In this case, and in your situation,(depending on where your speakers are in in relationship to a neighbors wall, AND how long your lease is :D, AND if transmission occurs at rediculously low levels, this is the one time I would suggest the use of a LIMP MASS product that you can purchase on a roll. I would fasten a decoupled cleat to the ceiling and hang it about 3" from the wall(from ceiling to floor, and the length of the wall(behind your speakers most likely). Then I would EITHER hang 3 or 4" thick rigid fiberglass broadband absorbers from the cieling also, about 2"(whats a few holes to fill later-big deal :p) with 1/4" ply backs and a one inch airgap between the backs and the fiberglass. Cover with fabric. Concrete enclosures such as an apartment, even though furred out walls will offer some bass absorption via membrane principles, need extreme bass trapping due to low frequency not escaping through the walls etc. Corner SUPERCHUNKS of rockwool or rigid fiberlass offer the best solution to this problem.

Ghost, if you will draw up a plan of your room, I'll draw up the stuff I mentioned here IF YOU NEED IT. :D But confirmation from your neighbors of transmission levels will tell you the best information about monitoring levels, which translates into what you REALLY need if anything.
fitZ :)
 
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I forgot to mention DRAPES in front of the LIMP MASS. :rolleyes:
fitZ
 
Rick,

Thanks very much for your highly informative post. The info on decoupling the speakers is especially stuff that I will pay more attention to and I will feel out the neighbor who is directly beside me on the wall that the studio will share with their place.

I've included a rough sketch of the room which is 11 feet by 14" 10" with a 6' x 6' walk in closet that boarders with the common hallway on its outside wall. Standard 8 foot ceiling are in play here.

Oh, and about the walls in-between units, its single layer drywall directly affixed to the concrete partition wall which I don't know the thickness of. Floors and ceiling appear to be 8 or 9" poured slabs with standard oak parquet floors and drywall ceilings, no air gaps detected as solid knocking along the walls indicates.

Cheers! :)
 
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