The Great Professional Mastering Debate

[Son of Mixerman]

Just because its "mastered" by a Professional ME, doesn't means you are going to like it.

I thinks its interesting how people try to figure it out when they don't have any idea of what the source material was. How many stems were given, how many mixes, and on and on. I have a couple CD's done by Bob L and I think the mastering job was not the best for their style. But there are CD's Bob has done that are great, so what does that tell you. And the Mp3 format just plain sucks for quantifying a decent mastering job because of the compression. In fact not all encoders are created equal, so there is another wildcard to twist the subjective knob. What about the converters, do you think that the converters on a $200 card will not change the playback. Most of you guys are not listening to these clips on a decent listening device. Id recommend putting the mp3 into a wav format prior to playback. If mastering is even subjective from ME to ME, where disagreements happen between the top 10 percent ME's, where would I get the idea that a homereccer's subective opinion could be construed as correct or not correct. ME's can and do second guess a mixers choices. Sure its fun to pretend you understand, and that your opinion is more than an opinion, but when we all get back to earth..Its still just an opinion. Well, there my opinion

SoMm

 

[Lame Thrower]

I listened to these at work. That means I heard 'em on a pair of $10 Sony headphones with the right channel out. So much for the stereo field eh?

I thought that B sounded a little "tighter" in the midrange. I didn't notice the extra verb that everyone is talking about. That autotune effect is pretty wierd though.

Dachay2tnr, didn't you post this once in an early version without the autotune? I thought the harmonies sounded good enough without it personally.

I'm curious if any of the more experienced posters think that acapella music might not be the easiest style to differentiate in a test like this. Any opinions on that?

 

[dachay2tnr]

I'm a little sorry to say that this thread seems to have turned a bit sour, and is not the fun I had anticipated. Orignially I thought I would just post the mixes, you would vote, and I'd tell you the answer and we'd all have some fun in the process. In the end, who really cares which is which (except for me since I paid for the mastering). So I'm going to end the thread by posting the answer, ask that you all please don't take yourselves so seriously.

Comments such as:
I can't tell because they both suck
Maybe the original mix sucked
Maybe the singers suck
Maybe the ME sucks
Autotune sucks
and so on, served no real useful purpose IMHO.

I do find the mix of opinions interesting. Which could, of course, mean that both mixes do, in fact, suck. Or it could mean they're both decent. Or that mastering doesn't matter all that much. Regardless, the point was simply to have a little fun and see how the opinions lined up. Son of Mixerman has it right, .mp3's are the wrong format to properly judge this (as I think I said in my original post). So if it turns out you made the wrong pick, simply chalk it up to that. It doesn't make you a bad person

So with that all said I am giving my personal award to Track Rat. He hit everything right on the nose, and he said it in as few words as possible.

The "pro" mix was A. The mix that I did (B) used the Waves S1 StereoImager (along with the C4 and the L1). The S1 created the wider stereo field that some of you heard.

The vocals had both a reverb and chorus effect on them from the original mix (and I still believe that what you guys seem to think is autotune, is actually the chorus effect). However, as many of you noticed, the FX were noticeably decreased in the "pro" mix. That was the most obvious difference to me.

Personally, I prefer the B mix. But simply because I prefer the additional reverb. That doesn't make B any better (in fact, it is probably "technically" worse), but it's the one I'd rather listen to. And in the end, isn't that what it's all about?

As a final comment, I will tell you that I feel the pro improved most of the mixes we gave him. And the "mastered" CD is overall more consistent, and has less variation in sound both from song to song and system to system. Could we have gotten a better mastering job? Probably. But then this stuff isn't intended to win any grammy's anyway.

 

[Kramer]

The "pro" mix was A.

........to me it was a given but I guess the experts in this thread didnt think so!j/k...I had to gloat a little bit.

It just goes to show that everybody has something different that their ears are looking for in search of the perfect sound.Thats what makes music so great.

 

[JimH]

The chorus effect was of course obvious from the first second of playback. That’s why I didn’t bother to mention it. Could it be true that that is what people are mistaking for autotune??? I’d be surprised if so.

Not a bad job with “B”. I liked “B” more because of the low mid EQ and the fun stereo imaging, not because of the reverb. The reverb was ok, but I think it just a matter of taste, whether you want your singing group to be in a cave or out on the beach.

 

[Lame Thrower]

For some reason, every time I post in a thread, the person that started it comes in and says "This thread stinks."

Maybe I am just an A-Hole?

I didn't think it sucked. I just really appreciate good vocal harmonies, and I like to hear them as naturally as possible.

 

[chessrock]

You gotta' have thick skin around here when you ask people to critique your mastering job. People can get downright nasty, can't they?

I think we can definitely chalk this one up as a victory for the homerecer. I let everyone down last year with the canned reverb on the choo-choo chain bound for heaven, but you have redemed us all.

(For thos of you who don't know - just don't ask, okay? )

The rebellion has a new hope. Can we call you Luke?

 

[dachay2tnr]

Lame Thrower - just so you know, our posts were simultaneous and my comments therefore were not at all directed at you (I hadn't even seen your post when I wrote them).

And Chessrock, I wasn't asking people to *critque* my mastering job (at least I didn't think I was). I only thought we could have some fun in seeing how easy it was to pick out the "pro" job. Turns out it wasn't so easy - but I don't even want to start getting into the reasons why.

My *reaction* stemmed from the fact that I was beginning to feel that people were already setting up their defenses if they proved to be wrong. And that made it no fun anymore - at least for me.

Or maybe my skin just isn't thick enough. Who knows.

 

[Lame Thrower]

Lame Thrower - just so you know, our posts were simultaneous and my comments therefore were not at all directed at you (I hadn't even seen your post when I wrote them).

I didn't really think they were. I was just poking fun at myself mostly. That has happened to me many times.

Good job on your mastering experiment too. I really thought that B had a more professional sound. You could make out more of the subtleties in the performance. Mix A was a little louder, but that's about all it had over A IMHO.

 

[SLuiCe]

With the debate over (questionably), whether you used Auto-tune or not, I wanted to tell you I think your performance was very good. I really would like to hear an unprocessed version...I think I'd like it more. Nice job!

 

[crawdad]

I'd like to see you continue this thread, posting what you consider the very best mastering this guy did along side the original mix. I still like B better! I'd like to see how I feel about another song--perhaps one you think is a no brainer even. Maybe a consolation prize for playing the game! I enjoyed this. Oh, and everybodys gonna have some opinion. Thats just part of the process here so don't take it personal. I know sometimes its hard not to, but most of us aren't intentionally vicious. I always assume that I'm the last one who knows what my music sounds like or what it says. Everybody hears things based on different backgrounds and musical experiences anyway. I've never seen a thread that had zero critique content.

Do a part B!

 

[Kramer]

Everybody hears things based on different backgrounds and musical experiences anyway.

You hit Nail on the head!

Thats why it's a good idea to hire people who have some of the same musical experiences and background as you do.(IMHO).

We have a guy here in town(the one and only studio) that has been recording for over 25 years,and he can record/mix country,easy listening etc...but he has NEVER been able to mix or record a Rock band EVER.He has no concept or ear for it and after 25 years of trying it's safe to say he never will be able to do it.I wouldnt spend a dime in a studio for recording/mixing/mastering if the studio didnt have a track record for being able to consistently record/mix/master my style of music.

All the ideas expressed in this thread are based on personal taste.There is nothing about either one of these mixes that could be considered ABSOLUTE mastering errors.(again,IMHO).

 

[CyanJaguar]

So with that all said I am giving my personal award to Track Rat. He hit everything right on the nose, and he said it in as few words as possible.

I think Chessrock should also get that award. He was right on the money.

 

[Lt. Bob]

With the debate over (questionably), whether you used Auto-tune or not, I wanted to tell you I think your performance was very good. I really would like to hear an unprocessed version...I think I'd like it more. Nice job!

Ditto

 

[Chris Shaeffer]

I think Chessrock should also get that award. He was right on the money.

Ahem...

I don't suppose I need to mention that I also nailed it, even the plugins...

...first.



Actually, I'm pretty surprised that I was even close. And I am curious for a little calrification- it was chorus and NOT autotune? Is there any autotune in these mixs?

Take care,
Chris

 

[mixmkr]

Ahem...

I don't suppose I need to mention that I also nailed it, even the plugins...

...first.



Chris

AHEM>>> I think if you go back and read the VERY FIRST RESPONSE to this entire thread, you'll see that you made a mistake[in using the word, "first"] in your above statement.

You can hand the "trophy" over to me now pleeeze

On a side note. I'd LOVE to hear more comparison stuff like this. Hats off to Dachay2tnr for posting his two submissions, not to mention YOUR fine mastering job, and fine musical performances to boot too.

 

[WATYF]

I'm sorry I missed this whole thread... (been busy).

I can honestly say I woulda guessed wrong. I thought "B" sounded better... and I woulda chalked that up to the pro mastering... "A" was just too dry.

Quite frankly... I don't give a rat's whether it's got a "professionally mastered" seal of approval on it... the only thing that matters to me is what sounds better... and look at how many people here said, "B just sounds better".... Even some of the ones who said that "A" was prolly the pro mix still said that "B" sounded nicer.

and since the whole point of mastering is to make it sound more appealing to the listener,... then what does that tell you...?































next time save your money...


WATYF

 

[wes480]

hey i should win the award too...i said the same thing before track rat said it but I used more words

track rat snaked me!

 

[Kelby]

I should get an award too.

Not because I guessed right --- although I did guess right, it was just because I had a 50/50 shot no matter which way I went.

And not because I hit the nail on the head --- I didn't really say anything valuable.

And not even because I said it in the fewest possible words either --- I was pretty verbose.

But I'm a really cool guy, and I don't get many awards. And I have a good haircut.

Thank you for your consideration.

 

[chessrock]

Even some of the ones who said that "A" was prolly the pro mix still said that "B" sounded nicer.

and since the whole point of mastering is to make it sound more appealing to the listener,... then what does that tell you...?

Thank you ! !

My inital thought was "A sounds more bland and commercialized, so it must be the professionally-mastered one, while B takes creative chances I doubt a pro engineer would have the kahones to take for fear of not sounding like everything else."