The Great Homerec'er "Mastering" Dual!

[Blue Bear Sound]

Not saying I wouldn't do it, but what would that prove?

Let's say I was a complete yutz with computers, although I can work wonders with outboard stuff - all your "test" would prove would be that the s/w method doesn't necessarily work for me or is a less intuitive interface compared to the outboard hardware.............

Many seem to think there is this magic mastering box that someone hits a switch on to make it go.... it's more than the tools - fucking with the sound and by how much is as important as knowing when NOT to fuck with the sound....

I didn't "master" MixMkr's song - I simply listened to it, and applied what my ears and my audio experience told me to... made it a bit bigger and made it stand out a bit more... I didn't add anything new, no effects, nor did I change the original intent of the mix - I just brought out more than what was there when I got it......

Whether I used software or hardware is really irrelevant to the whole process to begin with!

Bruce

 

[sjoko2]

For a bloody foreigner like me........analergy is close enough

Hux - I think there might be a small misconception behind your request to see what Bruce could or could not do using software.
The best mastering tools ARE software. Hardware is mainly reserved for processing. (please note, latency is not an issue in mastering, as you are dealing with 2 channels only)
While the "real" deal software costs around 20.000 bucks, there is a lot of much much cheaper software with which you can do a very decent mastering job. I have in the past done some major release masters using Bias Peak with TC plug-ins, which, if you add the total, comes to just over 3000.

 

[atomictoyz]

Why is Bruce elevated to position of Untouchable in DIY mastering engineering to the point that no one should even try to beat him? I have heard Bruce many times says he does not own the equipment needed, nor does he consider himself a mastering engineer, so why the bias towards him. His equipment offers no advantage, certainly he has no specific education is mastering engineering outside of maybe having ability in sweetening the audio with some processing. One of the reasons Im asking these tidbits is why? In this thread I cant believe how many times cost and experience have been mentioned. Or how many times Ive heard talent mentioned, the equipment is referred to in mystic or cryptic terms. The thread won't die! My little dissertation did little to shed light on what I thought should be helpful. When someone asks if they can master at home why not ask what model of cutter they use, or do they outsource? Crossfades, fade outs, PQ edits, format conversions, error codes, and 1630 substitutions. Where are those test tones again, You said you labeled that, and I don't do DAT. Bob Ludwig said most of his engineers were musicians, he believes its essential because you really have to have ears for the music.
Yeah, the equipment helps...but if you don't have any natural ability, talent , experience and EARS then its all for nothing. Mastering Engineering is intellectual at least, but masterfonics.com has a great summation....


Peace,
Dennis

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Yeah, the equipment helps...but if you don't have any natural ability, talent , experience and EARS then its all for nothing.

I've BEEN saying that ALL ALONG!!!!

Bruce

 

[atomictoyz]

I've BEEN saying that ALL ALONG!!!!

Bruce

I tried to find all your quotations Bruce, but there were just too many. Forgive me, I crashed my RS6000 trying!

Doh!

Peace,
Dennis

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

 

[hux]

>>Let's say I was a complete yutz with computers, although I can work wonders with outboard stuff - all your "test" would prove would be that the s/w method doesn't necessarily work for me or is a less intuitive interface compared to the outboard hardware.............


wow..is everybody on every forum in a fuckin mood, or what?

just so you know, I'm not trying to cut what you did down at all....I hear a tune "mastered" by Mr. Bruce, which I remember reading was done using outboard gear...I think it sounds pretty dang good, as a matter of fact, and I think to myself - could plugins ever make something sound that good? I mean, theoretically could I ever get good enough with plugins to make something sound as good as or better than with outboard gear?

So I figure I'll throw up an idea - let the same guy do it with plugs, let's see how that sounds...there are quite a few musicians/engineers in my area that think the whole DAW thing is a farce...yea, I can argue till I'm blue in the face, but what if I had two songs, one done with plugs, the other done with hardware gear? What if they couldn't tell the difference, or the one done with plugs actually sounded better?

feh...don't fuckin jump to conclusions man, everybody ain't out to get ya.

 

[hux]

perhaps I should carify...there is an ongoing debate around here(meaning geographically) - a lot of folks don't think computers and software can produce the quality that outboard gear can...I'd like to find an A/B to listen to, that's all, by somebody who seems to know what the hell they're doing....sorry you took offense.

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

???

wow..is everybody on every forum in a fuckin mood, or what?

...


feh...don't fuckin jump to conclusions man, everybody ain't out to get ya.

I'm not jumping on anything... there was no sarcasm, puns, put-downs or anything funny or insulting in my answer as far as I can see... I was simply continuing the discussion....

*sheesh* ...and you say OTHERS are in a "fuckin' mood"????

Lighten up......

 

[RWhite]

WOW, what a wonderful thread! Just cool reading. Great thoughts from everyone.

I had been waiting anxiously to download these songs, unfortunately I had a little accident last Monday. I've been home recouperating and basicly lost touch. I usually browse this site as my day job winds down (7-9pm Mon-Thurs) but this is my first day back at work in awhile.

Almost any comment I can think of has been made, but I'll add one of first impressions. I downloaded the 320 MP3 files (having a T1 is a beautiful thing). Before playing them I saw Slack's comments ("STOP - listen before reading" etc.) and thought that was a good idea. I just have weak PC speakers here, so I figured I would take the files home and listen to them, then read the rest of the thread. But curiousity got the better of me and I had to play them, then read on.
It was immediately apparent that "A" was LOUDER than the other two. Probably better too, but on these cheap-ass speakers the differences are very slim, I would need to crank the volumne up higher than my (remaining) co-workers would like in order to hear the difference. I just found it interesting given all the gnashing I've heard about radio mixes, and too much compression being used, that the version closest to a "radio mix" seems to be prefered.

I'm putting the songs on CD now, I'll listen to them on my monitors tonight, and hopefully pick up on the more subtle differences.

 

[hux]

my doctor says it's all the caffeine..seriously, I was there today...I re-read yer poat and it confirms the validity of my usual policy of not making a heated post till the next day.

I apologize. First reading sounded shittified.

 

[chessrock]

Moral Victory ? . . .

Alright, so I only managed about 21% of the votes. Not exactly the Bush-Gore race, but I still find it encouraging to know that it wasn't a complete landslide, and that some people did kinda' get some of the things I was attempting to accomplish. Just a few random thoughts:

* Bruce, your mix was superior to mine, and I would have voted for yours had I had the chance to vote. It was a bit punchier, and better-rounded. The highs were crisper, and the bottom-end was more manageable.

* My original goal was to get more out of the bass guitar. I think I definitely achieved this. Listening to both again, I like the way I was able to bring that out in comparison to yours.

* Too much of a good thing? Although I succeeded in getting more energy out of the lower frequencies (compared to the original), I think I may have fallen prey to a common mistake us DAW users fall prey to: Falling in love with the Maxx Bass. To some of you not familiar with this plugin, it can be a very beautiful thing . . . or it can be your downfall . . . depending on how you use it.

In my case, I probably got a little carried away with it, and wound up throwing things off balance in the process.

* After hearing a little distortion going on in some of the higher frequencies, I may have gotten timid in boosting anything above 2,000 khz. Had I been able to ignore this imperfection, i think boosting some of these frequencies may have gone a long way in preserving some of the crispness that may have been lost when going crazy with the maxx bass! ! !

* Vocals a little more tamed; guitars brought out. I was happy with how I was able to bring the guitar out better during the solos. The vocals weren't as overpowerning in my mix, also, due to some mid-range compression I applied. That's just my opionion, and it's certainly up for debate.

* Damn, that canned snare ! ! ! Without a lot of experience working with this type of music, I committed another error: With most traditional rock music, I am used to seeing some serious energy going on in the 200 HZ range, due to the force of the snare drum. I generally consider this to be the driving force behind most rock songs. When I noticed a serious deficiency in this range (upon viewing the spectrum analyzer), my reaction was to boost this range narrowly untill I noticed something going on.

I should have left well alone. ) There really wasn't any "snare" to boost. One of the voters commented that he heard something going on in the low frequencies that didn't really belong there. That was the culprit. LESSON: GET TO KNOW THE STYLE OF MUSIC YOU'RE WORKING WITH. Don't try to bring out something that's not there. My bad.


. . . Good job, again, Bruce. And thanks so much to all for their (sometimes brutally honest) criticisms ! ! ! To those who said that my version sounded like shit, I thank you the most. What better way of learning which of my tendencies to avoid . . . what I do well, and what I do that sucks . . . than having a good chunk of this forum point out some of the things you can improve on. It's really the only way I'm ever going to get any better at this !

Comping the two again, side-by-side, I thik I have a much better idea of what to look for in a mastering job.

Peace !


- Chess

 

[mixmkr]

Re: Moral Victory ? . . .

Alright, so I only managed about 21% of the votes.
hey...and I got 17 percent, (plus I'll take the 6% who couldn't tell, for a total of 23%) and I didn't even master mine!!!


After hearing a little distortion going on in some of the higher frequencies, I may have gotten timid in boosting anything above 2,000 khz
..huh??...there was some clipping on the "all aboard" [stolen off the internet), but the only other distortion was the guitar sound...eh???


Damn, that canned snare ! ! !
I do think I have some "canned" drums recorded where as no one might be the wiser....but not this song....but that'll get me into another debate

When I noticed a serious deficiency in this range (upon viewing the spectrum analyzer), my reaction was to boost this range narrowly untill I noticed something going on.
this is an area where I think there is a major problem with music making these days....looking at meters and not using your ears enough. If you heard this first, then confirmed with your analyzer, then my apologies...but I think too many engineers[of all types] tend to worry about meters first, the music second.

Peace !
cheers!

 

[atomictoyz]

Oh as as a quickie thought about "DAWs", Sonic Solutions, SadiE, Nuendo and Sequoia are all Software Driven DAW's specifically for the mastering process, and it can be used in conjunction with analog processers depending on your signal chain preferences.

Talk about being in a mood, Im on my 3rd sinus infection in 8 months on top of having pnumonia once this recording season, I couldn't mix hot n cold water right to save my life, but I can type like a banshee!

Peace,
Dennis

 

[Queue]

recording season

Hey Dennis. I didn't know there was a recording season there in Seattle. I thought I was the one who lived where all the crazy laws are.

"Sorry son, but you've already bagged two full length albums and an EP, you're gonna have to leave some recordings for the other folks..."

Queue

 

[RWhite]

Well, now having to listened to all the tracks at home, I have to say the whole thing is a humbling experiance. And since it looks like the cat's out of the bag, I'll say why.

I decided to just go ahead and download all the .APE files, burn them to CD, and bring them home. Nifty compression program by the way. Played back the tracks in Media Player for starters. Concluded pretty quick that "C" was the original but found myself stuggling to define what exactly the differences were between the other two. Makes me realize again just how "untrained" my ears are, and makes me appreciate again those who have them. Also makes me realize that I need new monitors (or an amp), because I kept hearing faint "phantom distortion" especially on Bruces's track. Just a slight distortion on some high peaks which was not there in my headphones, so something is not right (possibly my brain).

I then loaded up all three .WAVs in Soundforge and laid them out side-by-side. Suddenly those subtle audio differences became glaring visual differences. Mixmkr is right on - it is too damn easy to rely on graphs!

Chessrock, for whatever this is worth, I think you did a nice job. Religious and musical taste aside, I think you took a decent sounding track and improved on it. It was interesting to read your post after repeated listening, because I agree that you did a nice job bringing out the bass. The section just before the first verse (30-40 seconds in) sounds much punchier and more pleasing to my ears than even Bruce's version. If, as was suggested in the earlier thread, you were being spotted points, I would call it a tie.

But I do have to give Bruce the overall win, and I'll repeat again, Bruce's mix is the unquestioned radio mix (and I DO mean that as a compliment!)

 

[sjoko2]

[B
Talk about being in a mood, Im on my 3rd sinus infection in 8 months on top of having pnumonia once this recording season, I couldn't mix hot n cold water right to save my life, but I can type like a banshee!

Peace,
Dennis [/B]

Joining my health club are you ?? Try having bone removed from around you sinus cavities, having the holes sprayed out with liquid and then bone put back in they "harvested" from your hip.
(in case you're interested, a limping deaf mute was the result

 

[Alchemist3k]

Re: Content Warning

ps - The song we ended up using is a "Christian Rock" song. If you don't like that sort of thing, then GO AWAY!!! (In Peace ) Basically it was the first song volunteered, and was a good mix, so that is how we chose it!!!

So Don't Bitch that I didn't warn you!!!

Just so I am FULLY warned, is this going to be anything like "Striper"?

 

[RWhite]

Sjoko2, I have recently developed even more sympathy for your situation. My forementioned "accident" consisted of me passing out on my feet (had an attack of intestinal pain so intense I literally blacked out) and falling flat onto a tile floor, and possibly the edge of my bathtub (the blood stains suggested the later). The blow went to head, face, and teeth, all of which surivived pretty well under the circumstances. However my bottom teeth tore a nice hole through my face under my lip, giving me a new bodily orifice where none was intended. Drove myself to emergancy to have it stitched up. Fractured a tooth too, although it seems ok.

Since then my lower lip swelled to a size bigger than Mick Jagger and Steven Tyler combined, although it it is now down to Carly Simon size. All my lower teeth are still numb, and I can feel them vibrate if I try to sing. But as I was reading through the posts here I was reminded that at my worst, I am still far better off than your situation, so my heart really goes out to you. I hope your recovery is complete, and the end improvement worth the pain.

 

[atomictoyz]

Joining my health club are you ?? Try having bone removed from around you sinus cavities, having the holes sprayed out with liquid and then bone put back in they "harvested" from your hip.
(in case you're interested, a limping deaf mute was the result

Hey, sjoko2 your looking kinda hip today! I SAID YOUR LOOKING KINDA HIP TODAY!
;.;;.;...;]']];];''././././..]]. <------ braille

I think Im going to pass for now on that offer sjoko2, Im probably going to go for the full head replacement instead.
I had colonoscopy 2 years ago which was fun, no cancer though. I got diagnosed with IBS, mostly my stomach though which can be loads of fun, its like being allergic to food and your stomach violently spasms when certain foods are eaten called triggers. My stomach lining is inflammed 60 percent to 80 percent of the time, I got more drugs than your local government...If you took the bone outof my sinus' right now it would explode into your hand and you would have more than enough liquid for spraying a small elephant. ANyone want to buy a Mucus farm? How about a Duck? Anyhow ....Im feeling for anyone with any sort of physical ailment, especially for sjoko2, anything that keeps you from doing what you love is always the worst of all.

Peace,
Dennis