The Great Homerec'er "Mastering" Dual!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Queue
  • Start date Start date

Which Sounds the Best to You?

  • TicketA

    Votes: 34 47.9%

  • TicketB

    Votes: 16 22.5%

  • TicketC

    Votes: 10 14.1%

  • I honestly cannot pick one as the clear winner.

    Votes: 11 15.5%
  • Total voters
    71
Jon X you made some good points and actully that is something I debate with myself almost daily.

It all boils down to this in my opinion - Joe shmoe cant hear a semi good mastering job done at home, compared to a mastering job in a pro's studio.
Conclusion would be - dont waste the money do it yourself. To a certain degree, that is very legit ! and in some cases wise.

The only reason to bring it to a mastering studio would be (again in my opinion) if you really care so much about your work you search for the best results you can get and take it to a pro.
You might get a result that only good musicians can tell the difference between the two. The musicians will tell you its a huge difference yet when I'm sitting at the board and mixing and working on a subtle change that to me means the world, I reconize the fact that to 95% of the people that are going to hear it (most of them in their car or on a home stereo which sucks or speakers placed in the worst place in the worst room...) dont really give a shit or care for that matter.
So I sit there cursing joe shmoe ( I do !) saying "as if he is going to give a fuck..." "Why am I wasting the clients money for a little subtle thing....Sometimes I'll rent a certain compressor and then I'll say to myself " WHY ?!!??" Can Joe shmoe even tell the difference?!?!?. I know I can, but does that justify the expense or even the effort ?!?!?
The only answer I have is - I do it for my art and for myself and for the few good musicians that will notice it. I get great pleasure
at hearing the end result and smile when I hear that small subtle compression working. I care about my work and I'll take great lengths to make it sound the best I can.
Yet I cant deny that almost every few days I say it isnt worth it as 95% of the people wont notice it and trust me after working of quite a few albums in my life, I have had no more then a handfull of people come to me and point out the subtle but great things
in the mix. Most including some really good friends, dont care...their just happy to get a free CD from me......that depresses me sometimes.


Slack,
Dont trust a so called "Pros" untill they have proved their worthy ness and ability. I would never record in a studio with out hearing their work and with out meeting them before (personality plays a major part when you record with a engineer). The world is full of mastering houses and studios. The internet is no help and only makes things worse.......
I have a package I send to every client that shows serious interest, that includes 2-3 cd's of my work. I dont remember every getting a serious client through the yellow pages.

I wasnt suggesting that Bruce did a better job. I truly have no idea as I havnt heard the song yet..... I was actully talking in a more general aspect and making a point that if the poll shows that there is no clear winner and that there is total confusion, that we dont conclude that mastering at home is the better solution as it seems nobody can tell the difference any way.

We all know as Sjoko said "it's the song and feel that matters. YET !!! how many of us know people that will let "THE SONG" carry the quality for us and leave it at that?.
I say its the song and the mix and the mastering and the guitar player and his pre and his pick that make it a great song. Every detail counts. Anybody who says it's the song and all the rest is shit is somebody not capable of getting it any further then were it stands at that moment and he knows it ! ( I dont mean you sjoko :))


I'm all for the fun in this as why else do we all come here for.....
 
I definitely understand that and feel that when people are commenting on the vocal they are talking more about the performance and realize it's nothing ANY mastering engineer could have done to help that... and honestly I think this could have been a more, for lack of a better word, "scientific" poll if a song had been used that people could get into and really listen without being distracted by the performance. Then again, maybe not and who am I to criticize the singing or the choice of material for the experiement... so I'll shut up now.

I think Queue just wanted to make "Christian Rock" look bad. :D
 
MY last reply was to what Bruce posted... and in the meantime while I was replying, Shailat put up some very good thoughts.

I agree with what you are saying, and you hit right at the heart of what I was talking about by mastering at home to my satisfaction. I think it's fun to work with material I've recorded, all the way from plugging in the cables and writing the songs to the final overdubs and mixing. I see mastering as a natural extension of the art I'm trying to create, and since it's the final word on shaping the sound of my art I like to have control of it. Yes, I'm a control freak. :)

With you being a professionl in the art of mastering, I see exactly what you mean and in the simplest form it boils down to philosophy of motivation and why we do anything that we do... ok, that would involve a LOT of simplifcation, but I think there's something to it. It can be depressing to work so hard and take extra effort to do something you love and then receive very little acknowledgement from anyone. That's when I say screw them.. I do this cause I love it, not for those losers...

Maybe when we're all long dead someone will buy a CD mastered at an auction like they do paintings of Van Gogh and the rest of those guys, beacause it will be considered high art and greatly valued cause someone took the time to go the extra step and complete all the minutia that currently the mass audience doesn't even know exists. Not that that will help now :D
 
Jon X,
Just 3 small things.

1. I tend not to master my own work. I'm way to invovled already and am to biased.

2. I wouldnt call people that cant reconize subtle issues in the engineering work - losers. Maybe I'm expecting to much from other people although it still depresses me.....

To me a diamond is a rock to some woman a diamond is heaven.
To me a ride in a roller coster is sick for some its breathing life.
To me a ballet dancer in tights is a bit to much, for some its art at its best... and so on......
When my Brother in law talks about his great stock exchange he just made with a glint in his eyes I pinch myself to stay awake and listen...he thinks what I do for a living is equal to being a bum.....so although my Brother in law IS a loser... the rest are simply....human.

3. I dont want the masses apreciation...I want their cash a lot and fast :)

Thats another interesting topic.......why do so many people see musicians and recording engineers as bums and not artists...but not today...not today :o
 
Reference monitors=Event 20/20's clear winner B!!!!!!!!
mp3 version
 
Shailat,

1. I hear you on the not mastering your own stuff. I agree that's most always the best way to go.. I just can't let go of enough control, hehe. If I had to count on my music to feed my family I guess I would, but otherwise I have a hard time because I was burned once by an underhanded mastering house. I've got a mental block about it now cause of that. I think those types are doing more to damage credible recording studios and mastering places than anything else.

2. I wouldn't really call them losers either, that's just my brash way of saying I try not to spend time worrying about what everyone thinks of the music I produce.. screw them, screw them alllllll!! :)
And you are right, I'm also big on perceptions based on point of view and how everything is relative to whatever you view as an absolute; so what some people love others will undoubtedly hate.

And leave some of the masses cash for the rest of us.

Sometimes my mouth (or fingers typing I guess in this case) get in the way of what I'm trying to say.
 
well...this has been a most revealing and interesting thread. ..and hats off to Queue for coordinating, and to all that actually listened and had comments ( ;-D ). As it may or may not be known, I was the guy the recorded this tune...everyone's NEW FAVORITE!! A couple of thoughts on my mind.

1. It IS amazing how many people are so way off base on their listening...but then maybe I am too, with my recording to show for it!! But, I think this exercise makes a point that mastering at home for the masses is a viable option, as many can't hear a lick anyway. Even though I submitted the original, it is WAY obvious which that one is....shit it's only a couple dB down from the rest!! Now, I can't say for sure who mastered which one, as I don't know Bruce nor Chessrock, and I don't feel it's *proper* to give the thumbs up to either, NOR assume the better mix is the guy with the better equipment. According to an email from Queue, my 'guess' as to who mixed which, was correct. One mastered version definately had the bass "turned on", and the other was MUCH better.

2. True...I do agree, a better tune would have probably served this *contest* better...and especially a tune, within a couple of others. Mastering one tune is kinda strange to me, as I think that making a whole album cohesive is a large part of the mastering process too. I submitted a CD of intentially unmastered stuff, and this was the one tune that was picked. Not MY favorite, but I think the most "pop" orientated of the bunch on the CD I sent. And YES...the vocals are up....(singer request!!)

3. Just about everyone was wrong on the guesses on way it was recorded, etc... There seems to be a "new school" of recording that either you use a RODE and an ADAT, or you spend the bucks and go somewhere. I feel I am in between...kinda.


4.... and therefore, a couple of explanations/descriptions of the recording process.....not that anyone is especially interested, but I believe it was mentioned in the other thread in Sound Forge. (and scuze me for the 'recording techniques' in the 'mastering' forum....but what the H).

First off, in my 30 year recording experiences, this is my first Christian based recording I have EVER done for myself. What makes this intersting, is the fact the I have received some of the most EXTREME and INTENSE feedback from this CD...both really good, and some really bad. When I cuss (damn it now!!), people even tell me I need to "live up" to my music!! I love it!! Some people have related that they got baptized after listening to some of the songs, and not suprisingly...many can't stand it. Preferably now, I am more "into" the New Age genre currently, with synths, etc., etc., but have done my share of rock and roll and jazz (as I am a Berklee '78 graduate). When I have recorded the other styles of music, no one told me how bad it really sucks, and so on....The "Christian element" really seems to bring that out. Likewise, I have never had anyone tell me that my music changed their life either...by my guitar licks and my '80's canned/gated snare sounds...which I still love. My "mood" music puts people to sleep, however...which is GOOD....my intentions there!! This religous stuff really gets people to express their feelings....and I like that. In general however, I am getting a MUCH wider audience with this music, VS my other stuff. ...the kids to the old folks. I like that too. My 83 year parents listen to my head banging stuff...but I'm their 48 yr old kid!...they gotta listen!! and they love it..

anyway...enough of that. The singer is 60 years old, and has never recorded ever before, much less sing outside of her kitchen or the church choir. I "nabbed" her, and said..."let's record a CD...you sing, and I'll do the music." Being a housemaker with plenty of time, she said "great." So...she wrote the lyrics, and I put music to it. So, that might explain why she is no Barbara Streisand to those of you in the "know." However, she is a DEVOTE Christian, and the fact that so many people are listening to the song, has made it a HUGE success to her, whether you like the song or not....just the fact that you listened to her words was her total intent...nothing more. The guy who said his wife did the "double take" and he played it again a couple more times for her to laugh at...that's great!!! that kind of stuff will make the singer's day actually....but not as much as the guy who said he got baptized (from another song now...) We've given away WELL over a hundred CD's now, and actually getting some good results because of it.
And...I did all the music. The guitars are all recorded EXTREMELY loud outside (I live in no-wheres-ville Kentucky) with SM57's about a foot away from the speakers. The distorted stuff is a Gibson L6S thru an Ampeg V4 with 4 12's and a little Leslie that I have. Nuttin' else. The clear guitar is a 80's Amer. Strat thru a blackfaced twin. The mic pres are old Fairchild ones from the early 70's (from a custom built board that Glen Cambell recorded "Galvaston" on!), with no EQ. Staight into my Layla card and then into CoolEdit Pro. Interesting about the comment about being all overprocessed....shit, my guitars are straight into my amp!! No fucking POD there!!! ... a guitar, a cord, and an amp. (but I do own a POD! ...and love it! ;-) ) maybe the Leslie???
All the keyboards are a Roland xp50, and the bass guitar is my 80's 4001 rick into a J-station, into the computer. A bit of chorus there...hence, maybe the processing remarks. And, of course the drums are canned. (and THAT processing....oh well!!) Oh...the vocalist, an EV RE20, with a pop filter within 6 inches from the mic. I screwed around with the Antares mic modeler, but I have NEVER kept any results from it. But...the pitch correction is there........!! The reverbs are various ones, like the truverb, and other software ones. No gates!! I just edited the .wav file after processing (on the beginning) to achieve the same results. (heavy gated snare). The "all aboard"...stolen off the internet somewhere...clipping and all. Oh...a little RCL WAVES compressor on the bass...otherwise, that was it on the compression. The guitars where so friggin loud, and the canned drums kept the levels all soooo constant. I monitored on my pair of JBL 4311's and a little set of Auratones (when my ears get tired...I like to crank it loud). So...I mixed it down, out of the computer, thru a MX5200 Fender board (yes..a Fender board) that was the predessesor of the Mackie stuff out now. (The Mackie stuff was about 30% cheaper when it came out, hence then, Fender stopped making it.) Great little board for mixing...2 monitors and 4 auxes, plus 4 subgroups for mixing...and the EQ works for me. I generally skip the mic pres, unless I need the mic inputs....like over 12 at a time....or for quick demo stuff, etc. But, anyway...I mixed to my DAT, then via SPDIF...back to the computer to finally trim the front and rear edges and some minor other stuff. Then CD architect and out to Queue.

For what it's worth, (embarressingly now), I've probably engineered over a couple thousand paying sessions in my life, on Scully's, Ampex's, MCI's and just a few Studers, all thru a wide variety of boards as engineers at various studios thruout the 70's and 80's. I learned recording on a NEW 1 inch MCI eight track, AKG BX20 reverb, URIE 811's, and the *good mics* when they where new...like the 451's , 421's, KM184's and even a newer C12 at the time. The old ones at the time were the 666 EV's (what a mic number!!), and crap like that. I have NEVER used an ADAT, except as a mix engineer when I did some tracks, and that was the format. Currently I am making the best money out of my house doing stuff in rural Kentucky. >...A LOT of Christian stuff...so, I had to do my own....right..yeah...!! ...And am building a studio on the acre behind my house. All computer and mic pres...the only way to go, imo.

So...there it is...my longest post yet...and my life history too, I guess.

and I guess I ought to thank Sjoko for listening again....I do appreciate it, even if it was only 12 seconds!! To listen to the three mixes must have been surefire "Hell" for you. thanks, and since you use JBL's too, you can't be all that bad..(even though they do look a little far away in your studio pictures for that size of speaker). How come you don't have the big mondo ass JBL's?...or some custom jobbies?

oh...and the MP3's always make my canned snares sound like white noise. Honest, at home here, they sound great....(I think!) Sometimes I'll run them thru a speaker and pic them up with a mic, blend it in, and try and get a half decent room sound. ...my family room sounds pretty good...not to mention my back porch.
 
WOW

Now THAT was a post.

Chris,
I certainly think it was worth you posting... Even those who said they thought it sucked will be suprised by some of those techniques.

Queue
 
In response to Chris' post:

Don't worry;) I could have taken listening a bit longer - I just listened long enough to form an opinion, then play the next one.
I was at an advantage as I had heard the original (awfully perfect memory for sounds).

Regarding the monitors, when I designed the room I choose monitors first. Its what I would call a medium size control room. I tried a number of monitors and narrowed it down to 2 choices, JBL LSR28's and Quested 3308's. In the end I went for the JBL's because of their superior dispersement. Had the room been larger I might have opted for the 3308's.
For that size room (top of my head about 25 x 16 x 11 high), the JBL's are over 2100 watt, which is many times more anyone will ever need. But apart from those... there is a pair of Wharfdales, a pair of 'custom' motional feedback speakers powered by 6 amps, and 2 LSR25's.

As for the rest of the posts, amazing! I think I better leave it at that. Apart from posing one small question:
Why do you think it is that just about every pro engineer sends their material away for mastering?
 
sjoko2 said:
Apart from posing one small question:
Why do you think it is that just about every pro engineer sends their material away for mastering?
Click to expand...

The other set of ears...of course.
 
oh...and to take it a step further before the mastering process...why do you suppose there are mix engineers as opposed to tracking engineers? The same reason, right?...and the creative stuff too.....
 
>>So how come we have producers?

no one knows.


this is a great excercise...anybody thought of doing something like this with wavelab's reverb vs cooledit's reverb vs waves trueverb vs freeverb? Or something like that? Now THAT would be funny as hell, I'm thinking.
 
hey hux!

I thought it was you...

I think the next "challenge" might be a mix off...

Queue
 
hey bro...you following me, or am I following you?:)

I voted A as the best...seemed to me the highs were higher, the lows were lower, and the overall sound was "thicker"...B sounded like it was the original track, with C being not quite the job done on A...just my opinion, and what the hell (no pun intended) do I know, anyway? When do the results come out? If I'm gonna look like a complete fool I'd like to go ahead and get it over with asap....lol
 
hux,
I've lurked periodically here since the beginning, finally reg'd this summer.

"when will I know who is who?"
I was thinking about reaching 50 votes, but I dunno if we're gonna get that far, as things are starting to taper a bit. I'll prolly reveal the answers this weekend sometime...

Queue
 
A mixing excersise would be cool...One of my songs is actaully being mixed by a whole bunch of people from RO and Prosoundweb..should be interesting.
 
ametth said:
A mixing excersise would be cool...One of my songs is actaully being mixed by a whole bunch of people from RO and Prosoundweb..should be interesting.
Click to expand...
Which is your tune again Ametth? (I'm doing "Here Again" - I just got that tracks on CD yesteday)

Bruce
 
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