The formula for a "hit song"

  • Thread starter Thread starter Diverdown
  • Start date Start date
It is funny because after saying no with no doubts in my heart, I would second guess myself days later. I am glad I didn't do it. I would rather bag groceries than do the same song, the same way over and over, and on top that, to spend days, weeks, months, writing a song???? That sounds like hell to me. I am glad I said no :)

Props for having the courage to follow your heart and stick to your guns. The world definitely needs some Sponto to counterbalance the cookie-cutter side of the industry. :)

I have something of a foot in both camps. I'm also a 'go my own way' kind of guy. But have found that subjecting myself to more traditional disciplines from time to time has given me some very useful things too.

Building my house was a good example. My initial dream was some kind of freeform hippy haven. But I didn't have the technical skill to carry it through. Plus there were local by-laws to contend with. So I did a bit of work on houses and also learned the rules, and then applied them my way. I had to put plans in but I changed them as I built. Some of the changes were minor, or cosmetic, but still made a difference. I got away with the changes. Once the inspectors had left I made some bigger ones (like adding a staircase and an unusual looking upstairs room). 20 years later it's still standing, still a pleasure to live in, and still admired by visitors. Most of the hippy houses my mates built back then didn't last the distance, either structurally or aesthetically.

With music I try and follow both methods. My natural bent is to improvise and noodle - I absolutely love it. But I also enjoy study. So I do study some theory, and I write and re-write lyrics until they have the polish I want. I take the spontaneous stuff and then I work on it. Pull it apart, revise it, improve it and so on. Fortunately, I don't find that dry (probably because it's not a job and my end goal can be whatever I want, and it can change as I go). So I can get as much satisfaction (and pleasure of discovery) from doing 10 versions or arrangements of the same song until I find the one I like, as I can from doing 10 different quick ones.

I guess it boils down to finding out what suits each one of us best. So I mostly stick to pleasing myself about the way I like to work, but sometimes I like to deliberately push myself outside my normal comfort zone too....

Cheers,

Chris
 
I would rather bag groceries than do the same song, the same way over and over, and on top that, to spend days, weeks, months, writing a song???? That sounds like hell to me.

As Hakea notes, each to his own, which is fine by me.

But I'll throw in a couple of questions. Does Tiger Woods have a similar approach? Does he say "I can't stand the repetition of practice. I'll just go out and play golf when I feel like it. I can still be top of the field"?

The point is that we can avoid repition, playing the same song over and over, and get a kick out of our music through spontaneity,which is fine.

But there are many people who aspire to musical greatness, and that aspiration won't be realised unless they do the work necessary to achieve greatness.

For many years I played in a band, and one of our sidelines was playing for schools. For years we played the same songs over and over . . . easily a mind-numbing experience. But it wasn't . . . because you can learn to love repetition as much as once-off performances. Each time you play a song, specially when intensely familiar with it through repeated performances, you get a chance to explore some other dimension of it.

Practice is an integral part of any craft. It doesn't diminish the craft. And it is vital if we want to take the craft further.
 
I say to each his own. I have no judgements on what turns you on. I do what makes me feel best. I do what I do because I am driven to do it. Acceptance just doesn't mean much on this level. I am very repititious. I know very little about music and have my few little grooves. I twist them as I go along, and with them being so simple, I rarely think while I play- which is the key to tapping into the endless stories of life. The flow of words take me into the song. That just doesn't happen when I use preset words and beats. I am addicted to spontobeat, and like any junkie, I would rather get high than eat, love, etc... Luckily my addiction doesn't ruin me like heroin. I can turn it on and off and still hold a job, a relationship, etc :). I am now a special eduation teacher and have an autistic girl that will do the same things over and over when left to her own choice. I have learned not to judge this. She is learning to work a job, and doing great, but on her free time she does what she likes, which often unverves most people. they struggle with someone not moving outside what they percieve this girl knows. I have learned she has her own reality and I am not qualified to judge it. I compromise all the time with worldly encounters, but when it comes to my music, I am driven, much like this girl, to do what I do. My learning comes spontaneously. I like it that way. When I wanted to build and fly r/c gliders, I had to learn about the ruler through a lot of studying. It was painful but necessary to reach my goal. Up till then it had no meaning to me. Instruments are different. When I am inspired to learn one, I get to learning through countless hours of discovery. This approach turns me on. I have had lots of brushes with fame, and have had great musicians in my band because they enjoyed my approach. They did that on the side. Their money was made by playing in regular setups, which they also liked. I feel blessed to have played with so many great musicians and to have found something that I know I will never fully explore in this lifetime. Walter

PS: I define practice as picking up my instrument when inspired, and singing songs. I have never tried to learn a riff, song, and still don't know a scale. But I can tell you this, I put in 3-10 hours a day for 20 years and still put in 2-5 hours a day. I need to back up here. I did try to sound like the blues greats for a couple years when I started out, and never could get it. It kept coming out my own way. Since then, I just go with what wants to come out.
 
Last edited:
this is myopic idiocy... the question isn't whether sir paul et al know theory... the question is whether they or you would be more advanced if you studied some...

as i have said numerous times...

do you wanna speak french or merely sound french to those that dont know???

Those that don't "know"? Let me guess, you know? lol.

You can asked "whether they or you would be more advanced if you studied some theory" if you want, but it has no bearing on reality. Eddie Van Halen and Eric Clapton never took guitar lessons, would they be "better" if they did? Would Buddy Rich be "better" if he took drum lessons? Would Dylan have been a better songwriter if he went Berkley and took Music theory? Would the Stones have written better songs, the Who, VH, Cole Porter? muddy waters? BB King? And what exactly is better? who judges? Are we talking technically better? can you learn soul? These all time greats should take your advice and start reading some books!

Myopic idiocy? You utter ignoramus. I'd LOVE to hear your songs. No, forget it, I don't have to.

Here's a clue from someone who knows. Listen up Junior. You either have "IT" or you don't. You don't.. and I don't even have to hear a single song you wrote to know that. I, on the other hand do have "it", and you could study your brains out read all the books you want, pray to the high heavens until you croak and you'll never obtain what I was born with.
 
What’s a “natural”?

This is quite a hot topic in serious research these days. Not just among musicologists, but for behaviourists, sports performance researchers, etc. What seems to be emerging is that the idea of a ‘born natural’ has been grossly over-rated, and may even be pretty much groundless. The “IT” - if it exists at all - is more likely to be a combination of the right environment and opportunity plus the ability to concentrate and be passionate enough about the task to put the thousands of hours in to achieve mastery.

Chris

No no no no no! Sorry Chris, you've got it all wrong. Mastery has nothing to do with "it", nor does putting in thousands of hours. BB King is no master on the guitar, there are probably dozens of guitar players out here who can put him to shame. There are countless 16 year olds on youtube that can. On the other hand BB was born with "IT: and he doesn't have to do anything other than his own thing. I've been playing drums since I could remember, there were no musicians in my mother or fathers family, I don't know why I was drawn to them, but I was born with natural rhythm and could keep a beat like a fish takes to water, while my younger brother couldn't walk a straight line never mind keep a beat. My other brother took to the guitar like I did drums. As hard as I tried I couldn't play nearly as easy as he could. I have tapes of me at nine/tens years old playing things on the drums that I have trouble playing now. Back then I didn't think about it, just did it. This is true, it wasn't that long ago my brother and I found some old cassette tapes that we were going through. We were playing "Day Tripper", he on guitar and me on my CB 700's that I got for xmas. My brother stopped the tape after some nice drum fill I pulled off and said "can you even play that now?" and we rewound the tape and listened a few more times and I was like "I'd have to work on it!" I'm sorry if you or others don't understand, but it's not something learned over time, its a gift and what you do with it is up to you, but the "it" factor itself is not learned.
 
Are some of us saying then, that there is no such thing as talent? Or that it only plays a small part?

Getting back to the theme of this thread. If there is no or little talent involved then that would imply there must be a formula for a hit song. Without talent being a large requirement, there would have to be one. Unless songs become hits randomly? ...or perhaps ANY song can become a hit (with the right marketing?)

What do you think? :)

I don't personally care whether there is such a thing as talent or not. But it would explain why people like Paul McCartney and Paul Simon can write a lot of great songs: "Yesterday", "Eleanor Rigby", "Bridge over troubled water", "Sounds of silence", etc. etc. and become recognised internationally as great songwriters.

Neither of them are academics and both were writing great songs by their early twenties!

Fx
 
Last edited:
...

So... since its been established that the beatles, for instance... had such COPIOUS talent, which of course COMPLETELY overshadows any learning...

Why are they well known to have "lifted" chord progs from classical music? as in "Hey... use that classical chord prog there, okay... lets run it backwards..."

Talent w/o "skill set" is useless, and so is "skill set" w/o talent.

No one is going to get me to believe, that you are just "born" with something undefineable, then you never have to practice or study anything...

the list of artists that freely laugh at their early work (which we never get to hear, usually, except in rare circumstances...) and admit it was abysmal... yet talk about all the hard "work" that went into their "success", is a long list... in fact, its rather a formula.

You guys can go about with your "well practiced insouciance" all you want. The extreme position that "the less talented only have to study and work; the talented don't HAVE to... (sniff)... " smacks of "Paris Hilton syndrome"...

innate talent is great, even needed... but, perspiration is the icing on the cake.
 
I don't have a problem with:

talent + hard work = success

In fact, I would suggest that's the universal law of success.

I would qualify it though by proposing that the more talent you have, the less you need to rely on the hard work, and vice versa.

But of course, nobody is born playing a trombone! We all have to work at it to one degree or another!

:)
 
So... since its been established that the beatles, for instance... had such COPIOUS talent, which of course COMPLETELY overshadows any learning...

Why are they well known to have "lifted" chord progs from classical music? as in "Hey... use that classical chord prog there, okay... lets run it backwards..."

I don't think the Beatles talent completely overshadowed any learning they did. But in their case, I don't believe they had to work that hard at it either. I propose that Lennon and McCartney in particular did have a high degree of natural talent/ability. But of course they had to work at it too!

As for them nicking stuff from the classics. I never heard that from a source I respected. I think mostly it's just sour grapes from academics on a low basic salary and who need a text book to tell them when and how to take a crap! "Twice daily, three wipes minimum and always finish on an up stroke!"

There are plenty of highly respected classical musicians, writers, conductors and critics who shower praise on the writing talents of Lennon & McCartney; and my own ears and sensibilities tell me they are the ones to listen to!

Also, just about every chord or note sequence ever thought of probably exists somewhere in the classics already anyway. There's tons of the stuff! If you go looking for a match to a Led Zeppelin tune you'll probably find one if you look hard enough!

:D
 
Last edited:
No one is going to get me to believe, that you are just "born" with something undefineable, then you never have to practice or study anything...

the list of artists that freely laugh at their early work (which we never get to hear, usually, except in rare circumstances...) and admit it was abysmal... yet talk about all the hard "work" that went into their "success", is a long list... in fact, its rather a formula.

You guys can go about with your "well practiced insouciance" all you want. The extreme position that "the less talented only have to study and work; the talented don't HAVE to... (sniff)... " smacks of "Paris Hilton syndrome"...

innate talent is great, even needed... but, perspiration is the icing on the cake.

I can only speak for myself. I never said, nor implied that talent alone will get you anywhere. I gave an example of how I took to the drums like a fish to water. Do you believe everyone is born with a natural sense of rhythm? Go to youtube and look up talented little kids and tell me it's all the study of theory and work and practice that enables a seven year old to play drums like he's been playing for 20 years. Or the little three year old who can not only sing in tune and in time, phrases the words perfectly but also improvises when she doesn't even know what improvising means. Tell me all six year olds can play Eruption on guitar. These examples PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that the "it" factor is a gift you are born with. This little kids didn't study theory or read how-to books or put in thousands of hours of practice. They haven't been alive long enough!
 
I don't think the Beatles talent completely overshadowed any learning they did. But in their case, I don't believe they had to work that hard at it either.

:D

Exactly! Some people will never get it. It's not their fault.
 
I don't think the Beatles talent completely overshadowed any learning they did. But in their case, I don't believe they had to work that hard at it either.
I understand that before they were famous, they were playing incredibly long sets in various clubs. Since the sets were so long, they had to lean hundred of tunes. Everything from blues to rock to show tunes. When you spend that much time learning and playing other peoples hits, it's not a big stretch to think that they might eventually be able to put together, even subconsciously, what makes a 'hit'.


As for them nicking stuff from the classics. I never heard that from a source I respected. :D
Everybody rips someone off whether they know it or not. There are only 12 notes and only certain combinations sound good. After a few hundred years, all the good combinations are pretty well established.

This illustrates my point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdxkVQy7QLM
 
...

Okay... talent is invaluable... you likely have to work a little less hard to do the same thing when you have an inborn talent, and you really "take" to it...

but, many people accomplished in their fields... some of the very best, always cite hard work...

lets say your not hugely talentd in your field you are trying to succeed in... your going to do a lot of work. Lets say you ARE particularly talented, and show a great aptitude for it?

At THAT point, its a complete waste not to work as hard if not harder, just so you can get even more bang for your buck.

no matter what, hard work will always improve your standing... and, its always best to keep one's ego in check anyways...

so, I dont see the value of "knowing" if one does have vast inherent talent... you still should be doing the work anyways, and if your talented, that hard work will carry you further. and further, this "system" keeps you a quiet, easy to work with, down to earth person...

also, if you really love something, and your good at it... the "work" seems "easier".... does it not?

to each his own, and his own philosophy... I work hard at somethign whether I am talented or not.

PS - a rep means more when other people do all the talking about how talented you are, but you dont get hung up on it, I always thought...
 
I think John Mayer is such a talented guitarist and singer/songwriter... He is who inspired me to start playing guitar!
 
I understand that before they (The Beatles) were famous, they were playing incredibly long sets in various clubs. Since the sets were so long, they had to lean hundred of tunes. Everything from blues to rock to show tunes. When you spend that much time learning and playing other peoples hits, it's not a big stretch to think that they might eventually be able to put together, even subconsciously, what makes a 'hit'.

I never said they didn't do any work. But there were plenty of other Liverpool groups on the Hamburg and Liverpool club scene too, also playing those same incredibly long sets, e.g. Kingsize Taylor & The Dominos, Rory Storme & The Hurricanes, etc. (and some were there for longer than The Beatles..) but THEY didn't go on to become global bands selling a billion records of their self-penned songs! Which is exactly the point I'm trying to make! :D


Everybody rips someone off whether they know it or not. There are only 12 notes and only certain combinations sound good. After a few hundred years, all the good combinations are pretty well established.

This illustrates my point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdxkVQy7QLM

The guy is funny and he makes a point but it's still not a formula for a hit song. If it were, anyone could do it and King Size Taylor would be as famous as Paul McCartney! But he ain't! And neither is the guy in the video..

But I agree with you, it's all been done before. The talent comes in to play by taking (subconciously or otherwise..) those same chord sequences and 12 notes and doing it all over again in a "new" way, and writing hit songs that colour peoples lives. Of course, some work is involved somewhere along the line ..but to my mind the key thing is having the talent in the first place and, as has been said, going on to develop that talent by application. The audience at any rate aren't interested in the work that artists have to do: "Don't tell us about the labour pains, just show us the baby!"
 
Last edited:
I'm currently trying hard to quit the forum habit, but dammit, here I go again... :rolleyes:...



Go to youtube and look up talented little kids and tell me it's all the study of theory and work and practice that enables a seven year old to play drums like he's been playing for 20 years.


But nobody really IS saying that are they? Inventing an extreme and fairly silly point of view of view and then saying that it's wrong, doesn't make another opinion correct.


These examples PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that the "it" factor is a gift you are born with.


Nobody involved in research on these issues claims that everybody is born the same. That's clearly not true. Some are born taller, faster, smarter, and so on. Importantly, there is also more than one way to be 'smart' and not everybody’s brains have identical processing power. That’s beyond question. The serious debate is about what this mysterious "IT" actually is. Are people born with something as specific as a 'maths gene' or a 'music gene' or a 'language gene' or is it something more general that they then happen to apply to a particular area for long enough to achieve excellence.

There's no consensus on the details yet of course, but there does seem to be a lot of evidence for the idea that having 'talent' (or if you prefer, being a 'natural') has a lot to do with having an ability to concentrate - to lock in if you like - on a task in a very focused way, and then also being in the right time and place to find that special thing that engages your interest and motivates you to put the time in. It's not just putting a lot of hours in (which, one way or another, everybody still needs to do) it's more about how good the quality of your attention and focus is when you do it. Whether you use books, visual examples or your ears is probably less important than the quality of your concentration on the subject.


What you then use that ability for can depend on a number of factors, but opportunity is a biggie. Four year olds don't often go out and buy themselves a guitar, and the youtube 'prodigies' need both somebody to provide the equipment but also to assist and support them in being able to follow their passion for hours on end. So the so-called ‘natural’ violinist may equally have had the potential to be a ‘natural’ in some quite different area.

It's also true that many, if not most, of these child musical wonder-kids are never heard of again once the novelty of them being cute and precocious wears off. Some will succeed, some will go on to have unremarkable careers and some will switch focus and do well at something else. They don't all keep on track to gain genuine mastery, and they definitely don't all write chart topping hit songs (just to drag it briefly back on topic... :) ).


Nor do the successful ones produce nothing but masterpieces. McCartney wrote some brilliant stuff, and some pretty dire offerings too. (Plus he was lucky enough to team up with Lennon, and a superb engineer/arranger in George Martin and was part of a very exciting creative scene and era, all of which do help). Ditto for any songwriter that I can think of - they all ‘naturally’ produced some pretty ordinary stuff as well as the gems (and that's only judging by the work they thought was good enough to record). B.B.King, who you mentioned, largely repeated himself for decades. Tiger Woods still loses golf games... and don't let's get started on Bill Gates' software....:eek:


The reverse is also true. Some people don't discover their passion until later in life. Perhaps I'm a 'natural' at something I don't even know about yet? I do know that I was a natural at Chinese for instance. Our brains seem to be 'hard-wired' for language, but not necessarily a particular one. Swap babies from different cultures at birth and they'll learn whichever one they're exposed to. I just never got the chance to hear or learn Chinese - so I can't speak or understand a word of it. But I did have the potential. ;)


Most of all though, I can't think of any argument to support the idea that ignorance is ever better than knowledge. The whole 'natural' thing is all too often used as an excuse not to bother with any study, and that seems like a pity. McCartney knew plenty of theory when the Beatles were writing, he knew it from listening to hundreds of hours of Western music and picking up what worked, and from his own experimentation.

He just didn’t have all the language to go with it - although he certainly had some of it. I’m sure that he knew what concepts like ‘tuning’ and ‘chord progression’ and ‘melody, harmony and rhythm’ meant. That’s all part of what is somewhat misleadingly called “Theory”. I see music theory as intelligent written discussion about what works well in practice, not some airy-fairy imaginary stuff, and not a dreary strait jacket either.

I feel that I’m lucky enough to have been born with many what you might call ‘natural’ gifts, but I’ve also found that they can all be improved by doing some study. Learning doesn’t need to be dull, geeky or hard. I’ve worked in many areas, some of which seemed to come fairly easily to me, but I’ve not yet found one wasn’t improved by learning some tips from those who mastered it before. And that’s all “Theory” really is - it’s just the written distillation of the experiences of thousands of smart and accomplished people who went before us. It’s not compulsory to pay attention, but you’ll miss out on some very neat stuff if you do ignore it.


Somebody once said “I’ve been rich and I’ve been poor; believe me, rich is better”. So I say “I’ve been uneducated and I’ve been educated; believe me, educated is better”.


Cheers,

Chris
 
Maybe I should have posted this first. But here’s a short version:


Many things have an effects on success, including whatever ability you were born with, how much you learn along the way, and what opportunities come your way (what you might glibly call Who You Are, What You Know, and Who You Know).


You can choose to improve all three. You can work on being at the right place at the right time. You can even work on building/improving the neural pathways in your brain (that’s what practice does). But one of the swiftest ways to improve the odds is to gain more knowledge - whether you get it through talking to people who know stuff that you didn’t, through general study, or learning ‘theory’ or whatever you want to call it. They say that Knowledge is Power. They’re right. :cool:

Cheers,

Chris

Now I have to pull the computer plug out of the wall, and nail a plank over the socket...:o Cold turkey. Wish me luck...
 
Listen, Chazba said:

Originally Posted by chazba
If you are gonna call yourself a "Songwriter" at least learn the names of the tools you will be using. Take a music theory class at your local Junior College or at minimum , buy (and read) a book on music theory. You can't develop beyond a newb level without it.chazba


This is pure nonsense and as ignorant as hell. That's what I first responded to.
 
No argument in principle with any of that Chris (more or less).

Another thing I was just about to post, before I saw yours was this:

I sat down recently for two days and sweated over a lyric and a tune. I drank loads of coffee, went out for a walk to try to write a new bit in my head, scribbled, crossed-out, recorded ideas, sat with the bass, sat with the guitar, ate peanuts, wrote and wrote and sweated, etc. etc.

At the end of that I had "Seven Tears Ago" my entry to last months forum Challenge.

McCartney may have written some crappy tunes BUT he goes through a similar process to me I expect in doing his writing YET sometimes he writes, "Hey Jude", or "Yesterday" or "When I'm sixty four" or "Eleanor Rigby", etc.

No matter what, the guy has talent beyond what I have as a song writer. Although I expect we've both sweated plenty. Perhaps his sweat was more focussed than mine, I'll concede that... ;)

I don't think anybody is seriously trying to say if you have talent you don't need to study or do any work. But there seems to be some deriding of talent here, or the idea of talent, which I think is misplaced when trying to understand where hit songs come from.

Hits don't come from study. It's not the same as studying maths or accountancy where, if you're capable and follow "the rules", you'll get the right answer. Hit songs come from talented people who probably have done some studying of some sort and also lots of practice along the way, which will undoubtedly have helped them progress, but I propose that's not where the hits come from. If it did you would be able to study music, practice your instrument, pass your exams and write a hit song. Clearly, this is not the case.

We are no closer to a formula in my view except maybe:

talent + application (study, practice, "work", etc.) = hit

But take the talent away and there will be no hit. I would also say that talent is the greater part.

Awop-bop-aloo-bop-alop-bam-boom!
 
Last edited:
Back
Top