The formula for a "hit song"

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On the few occasions I have played my songs to others, either 'live' or on tape the usual reaction has been polite silence. One singer said, 'sorry, I can't hear a melody..' :eek:

I got fed up of this kind of reaction and the last time I played a song to somebody was about 7 tears ago. The reaction on that occasion was, 'those aren't proper piano chords and that singing is out of tune...' :D

I can laugh now as I'm old..:rolleyes:
 
It illustrated to me that even people with uber talent search and think about formulaic success, and while I hope to be spontanius and inspired in my writing, if I find myself feeling slightly contrived ,I know I have good company

Well said!!!!!!!!
 
:D Maybe I'll use it in my December Challenge song (still doodling with the lyric)!
 
...

when you hear somethign that strikes you as really AWESOME... you have to check to make sure your JAW hasn't really dropped open in awe...

Just ONCE, I would like just one listener to drop their jaw open, if only for one second of a track I make... if for only a few seconds they stand in "awe"...

... god forbid when they are done they might say "I cant believe you WROTE that... thats all original? Thats YOU? Holy shite..."

THATS what I want, but have not come close yet... as ever, "back to the drawing board", ha ha

"Genius is 1% INspiration and 99% PERspiration"


Einstein spent like 8 to 12 years failing miserably with his theory of relativity; some thoguth he was on the right track; others threw mudballs at him...

...curious thing is, 12 years later (and ever since...) we only remember his final triumph...

no one will fault you (nor any of us, should we ever pull it off) for the hundreds of tracks we worked on that went nowhere... they WILL remember you long after you are dead for that ONE big song you did.....

music a weird field... you can sell a billion albums, yet be considered a complete "hack" and get critically eviscerated... OR, you can sell like 5 albums total, yet be simply the DARLING of the "critics"...

*shrugs*

somewhere in between, man...

and...

"Back to the drawing board" for me, anyways...
 
Good song bad song?

I would say that if you create something which you can sit back with a big grin on your face and say "I created that!" and sigh a deep sigh of satisfaction with your work - that is a good song.
 
I would say that if you create something which you can sit back with a big grin on your face and say "I created that!" and sigh a deep sigh of satisfaction with your work - that is a good song.

I do that . . . each time I write a song.

A month later I go "what was I thinking of?"
 
I do that . . . each time I write a song.

A month later I go "what was I thinking of?"

I think maybe we all go through something like that.

What a let down after all that euphoria when I later realise I have just another mediocre effort!

To combat that I write slowly these days, and then leave it for awhile once the immediate inspiration has subsided and evaluate it later instead...

...and yep, sure enough, it's another turkey! :D
 
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Man, this is a cool site. I love these threads.

I think the 80's sound is coming back. I know it's here already, but I'm waiting for it to come back full force. Like Americans singing in a faux British accent over dance beats and stuttering guitar tones. Get ready to hear this a lot soon. I think the current generation.. Generation Y and the generation that will come after it, will be the coming of age group that will be into that 80's sound that we, Generation X, will be producing for them to hear and hopefully, appreciate. Then they will take it and morph/mutate it into their own sound for the generation coming after them. I believe history repeats itself.. no? I could be dreaming.. but I've been hearing that 80's sound all over as of late. In movie trailers, tv commercials, you name it.
 
Man, this is a cool site. I love these threads.

I think the 80's sound is coming back. I know it's here already, but I'm waiting for it to come back full force. Like Americans singing in a faux British accent over dance beats and stuttering guitar tones. Get ready to hear this a lot soon. I think the current generation.. Generation Y and the generation that will come after it, will be the coming of age group that will be into that 80's sound that we, Generation X, will be producing for them to hear and hopefully, appreciate. Then they will take it and morph/mutate it into their own sound for the generation coming after them. I believe history repeats itself.. no? I could be dreaming.. but I've been hearing that 80's sound all over as of late. In movie trailers, tv commercials, you name it.

God I hope your wrong
1 time found with "A flock of seagulls is enough" and lest we forget
the DA DA DA.
I dont think society needs anymore padded shoulders and faux zippers either!:D:D:D
 
that original sequence of chords is a very standard half cadence used in the roamntic period...
 
T
Here I will introduce an idea called fitness for purpose. A Ferrari F1 car is a suberbly engineered, purpose-built, racing machine, and fulfils that role particularly well. But it's of little use in driving down to the corner shop to buy a paper. A Toyota Corolla has no show of matching the Ferrari on the racetrack, but it is an economical, reliable and versatile car that, like the Ferrari, fills its particular role supebrly well, i.e. as a domestic sedan.

In this sense, 'good' is neither absolute nor universal; it's defined by fitness for purpose, i.e. whether something does the job expected of it.

Great post! Great points. :)

"Fitness for purpose" is an excellent yardstick to run over any attempt at creativity. What am I trying to do here? And while I'm at it, what audience, if any, am I aiming at and what elements might they respond to? Will I be satisfied with an audience of... how many??... millions...thousands...hundreds... a couple of mates..... just me?

Originality? To quote Scrooge, "Bah - humbug". Any originality on my part is just a sprinkle of icing on the top of the cake.

My "100% Original" songs use:

Unoriginal instruments developed over many years of patient work by others.

Unoriginal set of tones and pitches. Western music currently uses a collection of 12 in 'equal temperament' that took thousands of years of experimentation, discussion and development to arrive at. None of it done by me. There's plenty more on offer - as any beginner trying to tune their instrument soon finds out. ;)

Unoriginal effects created by the way I use intervals in a melody, or chordal harmony and progression. None of it invented by me. Ditto for keys, time signatures, rhythm and all the other aspects of music that enable me to play in company with other musicians precisely because we agree about a whole raft of basic underlying structure that we then stick our bit of individual 'originality' on top of. My ears and tastes have been shaped by 62 years of listening and forming preferences. Unsurprisingly, what I think works differs from some listeners, but lines up with a great many others.

Unoriginal language. I'm not saying that I love a good cliche in a lyric - I don't - but if somebody laughs or cries at my lyrics, or even thinks they're rubbish, it's because I'm using the product of centuries of work by others. If I wasn't, then the effects I'm trying to create wouldn't have any chance of working.

Elsewhere on this forum I mentioned that I thought "Imagine" was shallow, simplistic and superficial. It triggers no emotional connection with me, and that "Blowin' in the wind", is, in my view, a far more powerful song lyrically. I expect both do a reasonable job in making people aware of the folly and tragedy of war and conflict, which makes them both 'good', even though I like one and dislike the other.

You dare to question the work of the Sainted John, revered Father of Deep Hippie Thought and consort of the Great Art-Mother! :eek: You heretic!

Coincidentally I came across Imagine in a songbook only a few days ago and strummed through it. My thoughts were roughly "Geez, I'd forgotten what a load of simplistic drivel that song was..." but I then spent a good while admiringly looking through it to see what I could learn about why it had been so spectacularly successful. How its 'fitness for purpose' had worked - as you say.

I think 1456 chord progressions do a fine job. I certainly intend to add my fair share as part of my musical education. I just hope not to stay stuck there. :)

There's a song by Axis of Awesome that sends it all up nicely by stringing something like 30 or 40 other songs together.

4 chord song by Axis of Awesome

It's a neat illustration of why it's a really excellent idea to get some skill in writing MELODIES and not just thrashing out chord progressions and hoping that a fresh and appropriate tune will just pop into your head later to paste over the top of it. Despite the comedy of it all, those songs aren't just all copies of each other. As part of learning the craft myself, I need to know why and how they're different, and why and where they're similar....

Wonderful thing music.... :D

Cheers,

Chris
 
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God I hope your wrong
1 time found with "A flock of seagulls is enough" and lest we forget
the DA DA DA.
I dont think society needs anymore padded shoulders and faux zippers either!:D:D:D

Ay matey, movies are bringing back the 80's as well! Sylvestor Stallone is making an old school action film called The Expendables where him and his team go take on dictators (a popular theme in 80's action movies -- you had the Cold War thing going), G.I. Joe is coming out soon, Transformers 2, and they're in talks of making an A-Team movie. Oh, and the ninjas are already here minus the mullet haha -- if you happen to sport a mullet, don't take it personal :) I used to have one myself. The guys who directed the Matrix are producing a film called, Ninja Assassins. The people breaking into film and music (and taking charge) these days are the ones who grew up in the 80's.

Haha, the padded fashion of the 80's can stay in the 80's, but I do like the music from that era. We could use another renaissance explosion in the music scene again.
 
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If you are gonna call yourself a "Songwriter" at least learn the names of the tools you will be using. Take a music theory class at your local Junior College or at minimum , buy (and read) a book on music theory. You can't develop beyond a newb level without it.chazba

Yeah, all the great songwriters of and before our time took music theory and read music theory books :rolleyes:

Paul McCartney can't even read music, neither can James Taylor. I'm quite sure Willie Nelson never took a music theory class or read a book. On reading music Willie said: "I don't read music that well. Or I don't read well enough to hurt my playing, as the old joke goes. Eddie Van Halen, going up against 2,000 people each year won fist prize three years in a row in a classical piano competition and he doesn't read music, he played by ear. Eddie VH: "And the judges would make remarks like, “Hmm, very interesting interpretation of Mozart.” And I’d think, Oh, shit, I thought I was playing it right!"

You want to learn music theory, more power to you. You think it gives you some kind of advantage in songwriting over a natural? Not in a million years. You either have IT or you don't. There is no teaching IT. The notion you must know theory or you're not a real songwriter is beyond ridiculous. Just ask the artists above for starters.
 
You want to learn music theory, more power to you. You think it gives you some kind of advantage in songwriting over a natural? Not in a million years. You either have IT or you don't. There is no teaching IT. The notion you must know theory or you're not a real songwriter is beyond ridiculous. Just ask the artists above for starters.

There are some people, like McCartney, Taylor and so on, who have a natural gift for melody and music, and may not have had formal music theory training. However, as an example to use, they are inappropriate, because they are exceptions. Think of all the would be artists who likewise have no formal training, and are getting exactly nowhere . . . they outnumber the gifted many times over.

Some people have natural ability, sure. Others have to work on it, and there are many writers who benefit from musical theory and have created catalogues full of great material (think Tin Pan Alley, for example).

But no-one is saying that unless you are trained, you can't be a songwriter.

Consider any profession: cook, golfer, surgeon, mechanic . . . . . . I can't think of any where training is not of benefit . . . . even if that training is self-taught.
 
Yeah, all the great songwriters of and before our time took music theory and read music theory books :rolleyes: .

this is myopic idiocy... the question isn't whether sir paul et al know theory... the question is whether they or you would be more advanced if you studied some...

as i have said numerous times...

do you wanna speak french or merely sound french to those that dont know???
 
You want to learn music theory, more power to you. You think it gives you some kind of advantage in songwriting over a natural? Not in a million years. You either have IT or you don't. There is no teaching IT. The notion you must know theory or you're not a real songwriter is beyond ridiculous. Just ask the artists above for starters.

+1 to gecko zzed's comments, but I'd like to add some more thoughts. What you have said there is a common opinion, and one I've seen many times on forums. I've seen much the same said about TAb or ear versus reading standard notation. People who don't read music use similar justifications for not putting the time in to learn it. The opinions always seem to be put forward by folks who want to justify their own reasons for not do the learning. Fair enough.

But I've done both. I've been in a position of starting very late in life with both playing and generally learning music, so taking short-cuts and skipping non-essential or barely useful stuff was very appealing. All my early learning/playing was done by noodling, playing by ear, etc with some fairly reluctant dips into books. But the penny soon dropped about how useful and interesting theory really is.

To take your first point

You think it gives you some kind of advantage in songwriting over a natural? Not in a million years. You either have IT or you don't. There is no teaching IT.

What’s a “natural”?

This is quite a hot topic in serious research these days. Not just among musicologists, but for behaviourists, sports performance researchers, etc. What seems to be emerging is that the idea of a ‘born natural’ has been grossly over-rated, and may even be pretty much groundless. The “IT” - if it exists at all - is more likely to be a combination of the right environment and opportunity plus the ability to concentrate and be passionate enough about the task to put the thousands of hours in to achieve mastery. Last week I was reading about some research done at a music college. They expected to be able to examine the differences between the ‘naturals’ who seemed to be able to rise above the crowd, the ‘average type’ and the ‘grinders’ - those who seemed to work as hard but never really get the pay-offs.

The surprising results was that it seemed to boil down to how much time people put in, especially when that time was fully focused and attentive. The ‘naturals’ turned out to be in love with their work to the degree that they were able to concentrate for hours on the job - indeed, were simply interested and passionate enough to keep going. Tellingly, they were unable to find anybody to fit the ‘grinder’ label.

So the usually quoted ‘naturals’ always turn out to have spent a large chunk of time in their youth just doing their thing over and over and over - with intense interest - until they built up the skills. With music, some did it by ear, some used things like TABs, fake books, chord sheets or had mentors to show them some tricks, and some used courses based around traditional theory. But they all put the hours in, and they all had teachers (if you listen to many hundreds of hours of music - as the so called ‘naturals’ did - you’re still learning from a teacher, they’re just not in the room with you.)

Of course, there’s also the point that 99.9% of the population don’t attract the ‘natural’ tag and can use all the help they can get.


Second point:

The notion you must know theory or you're not a real songwriter is beyond ridiculous. Just ask the artists above for starters.

That’s true, but who would say that? And the reverse - that knowing theory is some kind of disadvantage - is also clearly nonsense. I’ve also seen an interview or two with ‘naturals’ who expressed a certain wistful regret that they hadn’t learned to read music, for instance, but knew in their heart they’d probably never get around to it now. And some who actually had started to delve into theory a lot more in their later years. “Couldn’t read a note of music” always sounds good, but for those who spent a whole career in the song-writing business it might have been more accurate to say “could read a bit, but preferred not to work that way... “

I’m not a pro. I’m a Legend in My Own Lounge-room type. I play in public with friends, but it’s not professional. I nearly gave up trying to learn to read music, because I thought I was some kind of musical dyslexic I seemed so slow at it. I’m SO glad I kept going - it’s like having the skill to read a whole new and wonderful language. It’s an ability I’m absolutely delighted to have, and the usefulness of it could fill a book on its own.

Ditto for music theory. When I started ploughing through the books it seemed very off-putting. Endless weird terms that sounded confusingly similar, or just plain strange. What looked like rigid sets of rules, and pedantic do this and don’t do that stuff. It was worse than computer programming or calculus. But, hey, I plugged on through those until I got to the magic part where it all starts to make sense and proves dazzling useful..... so I did the same with music theory. Worth every minute spent too.

I’ll put a few simple examples in my next post.

Cheers,

Chris
 
OK. Here’s just a few examples of how I can use theory to help me and even to actually speed up my musical journey. many are about playing, but I've found that my songwriting and playing knowledge move forwards as a pair and one informs the other.

Giving me playing choices:

If I play a full CMajor chord on guitar, using 332010 fingering I know what notes I’m playing - GCEGCE. That’s actually inversions of TWO Cmajor chords in a row, and a choice of TWO root notes (the Cs). So when I’m playing I know that I can play a C chord using all the strings together, or just strings 654, just 321, just 543, just 432, 54321, and so on... When I want to emphasise the root note (the C) I not only know where it is, but I’ve got a choice of two.... and so on. This allows me to colour the music differently to keep it interesting, but it also allows me to choose to play much simpler versions if I’m changing chords in a hurry.

If I'm struggling to get, say a B chord in place in a hurry, I can apply a bit of chord theory to spot which notes I really need to fret and play and which I can skip (so if I'm careful which three strings I strike) I can replace a tricky four finger arrangement with a simple one finger bar, and so on. Great stuff theory... even helps you cheat a little... :cool:

OK, I could do most of that with a lot of experimentation (and I do that too) but I find it quicker to be able to combine the two - use the theory to tell me where the best place to look is).

Speed:

Quicker to find the answer that I mentioned above, but faster in other ways too. If I know a chord progression in the key C for instance then I’m already using some basic theory to know what’s meant by a chord progression, and by the “key of C”. But as I know a bit more theory I might also know that the progression was a I, vi, I, IV, V, or whatever. If the singer wants it in G instead, to suit their voice range, then I don’t need to look for a new arrangement or chord sheet, I can transcribe that more or less in my head and play in another key. And while on the subject of singers, I’ve never had much luck getting a singer to sing a guitar tab, but quite a few of them can read music..

Building chords:

If I see an unfamiliar chord I can of course look it up in a chord book, or online and get a chart of finger positions. But it’s quicker and more useful to know how to build it for myself. And doing so gradually builds up a great understanding of what all these fancy chord are about - how the sound varies and why - especially if I do it on a keyboard. It’s so quick and so visually clear what it’s about when you see it on a keyboard. I find the visual illustration help me understand - and remember - what the sound is doing too.

I can build a wide range of chords more or less instantly on keyboard. For instance, you might see in a theory book something like his: “A minor triad (3 note chord) is formed by playing a major third over a minor third.” or “The formula for a minor triad is 1 b3 5” This sounds pretty geeky, but all it means in practice is that you plonk one finger on the root note, count up three semitones (three keys on the piano) add another finger and then go up 4 more semitones (4 keys) to the final finger. By making the simplest, and clearest of small movements in the finger placement you can easily build - for instance - a C Major, C minor, C augmented (C+) C diminished, C7, CMaj7, Csus2, Csus4, and so on. Quite off-putting looking names on the page, but just very very simple and clear arrangements of three or four fingers when you see them on a keyboard. Do it a few times and you get that “Aha I GET what they’re about now...” thing...

Reading:

I can read music. Geez, that’s still a thrill to be able to say that.

So I can pick up something written in Russia 200 years ago and read what the dude had to say. Neat. Or I can pick up this book here - Easy Pop Melodies and see what Lennon and McCartney had to say in Nowhere Man. I can immediately so what key it’s in, and what time signature. I can read the melody straight off the staff too. That means that (even with the most primitive of playing ability) I can pick up a variety of instruments and pick the tune out, on a single string if necessary. I can also see all the chords (just letters above the staff) and I know how to build them if they’re unfamiliar. They’re not, but looking at the music does throw up something interesting - a CMajor chord right next to a Cminor. That’s kind of interesting to see both the Major and its minor in the same key, so if I'd not seen it before I might spend a while looking at that and experimenting to see how they’ve used it, what effect it gave, and what that was all about. Find out other ways of doing it too...

Harmony:

Sure I could bash out a chord progression and just sing the root notes, or maybe use some of the chord tones. If you don’t know any different, that’s where writing chords first can tend to pull you. Can get a bit samey though. Or I could learn a bit more theory about ways of combining melody and supportive harmony. Far from constricting me it has opened my eyes to wider possibilities AND speeded up the methods I use to make choices. No complaints from me.

Conclusion:


Do you think these so-called ‘naturals’ don’t know what’s meant by ‘play an F’ or the ‘key of C’, or what a ‘chord progression’ is? Of course they do, and that’s all just basic music theory. It’s not about whether you learn theory it’s about how much. And I can assure you, the more you know the more useful it is.

You think it gives you some kind of advantage in songwriting over a natural?

Yes. :D

If I put the same hours in, with the same degree of concentration as a ‘natural’ and have the same amount of whatever ‘talent’ is then my theory knowledge will put me at a clear advantage. As it stands, it’s more realistic to compare me with other amateur players and writers. Does my theory give me any advantages? More tools to work with. Without a shadow of a doubt the answer is YES! But if others don't want to learn any that's fine with me too. We're all different. :cool:

Cheers,

Chris
 
This is quite a hot topic in serious research these days. Not just among musicologists, but for behaviourists, sports performance researchers, etc. What seems to be emerging is that the idea of a ‘born natural’ has been grossly over-rated, and may even be pretty much groundless. The “IT” - if it exists at all - is more likely to be a combination of the right environment and opportunity plus the ability to concentrate and be passionate enough about the task to put the thousands of hours in to achieve mastery. Last week I was reading about some research done at a music college. They expected to be able to examine the differences between the ‘naturals’ who seemed to be able to rise above the crowd, the ‘average type’ and the ‘grinders’ - those who seemed to work as hard but never really get the pay-offs.

The surprising results was that it seemed to boil down to how much time people put in, especially when that time was fully focused and attentive. The ‘naturals’ turned out to be in love with their work to the degree that they were able to concentrate for hours on the job - indeed, were simply interested and passionate enough to keep going. Tellingly, they were unable to find anybody to fit the ‘grinder’ label.

So the usually quoted ‘naturals’ always turn out to have spent a large chunk of time in their youth just doing their thing over and over and over - with intense interest - until they built up the skills.

I have no basic disagreement with what you say. I agree that the idea of 'naturalness' has been and still is subject to considerbale debate.

Nevertheless I feel that there is a dimension that must be considered. Where does this 'love for their work' come from, the passion that motivates them to pursue a particular interest?

As an example, I have two kids. They shared a common family and developmental environment. One has a strong interest in, and is gifted, musically. The other has a strong interest in, and is gifted, in sporting activities. Both can do bits of the other, but not as proficiently. What causes one to pursue a particular interest, and the other another, when they emerge from the same pond? I believe that, irrespective of any environment and opportunity, there are 'resonances' that cause people to have an affinity for a particular activity, and, further, that this resonance is a genetic product.

I note also the performances in Olympic Games, where Ethopian and Kenyan runners seem to have a distinct advantage over other distance runners. I am sure that there are genetic constructs that assist this.

I think some people are better placed genetically to excel in a particular field . . . but I am not silly enough to declare that only those with this advantage will excel . . . even though the African runners do really well, they don't win all the time.

For whatever defining reason, for any ability or skill you pick, I think the population fits a bell curve . . . there will be some who are seriously adept, others who are real clunkers, but most will be reasonably good, average, or just okay.

And I further agree (and I've made this point many times before) that for any skill or ability you care to pursue, you can always improve through education, practice and experience. To repeat myself, I can think of no pursuit (professional or amateur) where there is no benefit to be gained from training.
 
Chris
That was a thoughtfull and well written responce , You have illustrated your point very effectively.
Im inspired to pursue some extra theory knowlege
Perhaps the moderators of this fine site would consider a forum for theory discussions alone?
 
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