M
mikeh
New member
Given that "good" is subjective - each us us would likely define "good" as something we approve of (something we like)
Frankie Rage
getting on with it anyway
Frankie Rage
getting on with it anyway
For those who write hit songs, I suspect they don't find it that hard!
Of course, I haven't writ one so I am only supposing!
Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
Maybe 'good' should be defined by the fans...and it varies....sometimes it can be a great song like A Hard Day's Night and sometimes it can be a suckful song like Tubthumping or The Macerena or sometimes it can be How Much Is that Doggy in the Window?
But yeah, everybody knows that everybody has a different idea of what good is. But just because everybody likes a song and makes it a hit, it doesn't mean it's a good song. That was my original point. It's pretty hard to disagree with that. Or do you all think that every hit song is a good song? I know that everytime I heard Tubthumping I wanted to get cheese graters and start to slice my ears off. I didn't think it was too good.
But yeah, everybody knows that everybody has a different idea of what good is. But just because everybody likes a song and makes it a hit, it doesn't mean it's a good song. That was my original point. It's pretty hard to disagree with that. Or do you all think that every hit song is a good song? I know that everytime I heard Tubthumping I wanted to get cheese graters and start to slice my ears off. I didn't think it was too good.
Whatmysay
New member
Lets not muddy the waters here
Your good my good will always vary - but a 'hit' by it very definition is a social phenomena. So a lot of people at the same time think it is 'good'. But even general social approval (sales) does not define good - let not forget genocide!
From my reading and other people I have spoken to - I think 'hit song' writers write with their (buying) audience much more in mind. Like media texts with a clear idea of target audience, form and content in mind. Built to sell.
A commercial success does not start with flashy production and a star attached to it - the song has to commercial played on an acoustic guitar.
Either way writing a song for yourself and hoping that it resonance with a wider listening audience or writing for a target audience/gener still does not guarentee success - perhaps a bit of both puts you in the neighbourhood
Your good my good will always vary - but a 'hit' by it very definition is a social phenomena. So a lot of people at the same time think it is 'good'. But even general social approval (sales) does not define good - let not forget genocide!
From my reading and other people I have spoken to - I think 'hit song' writers write with their (buying) audience much more in mind. Like media texts with a clear idea of target audience, form and content in mind. Built to sell.
A commercial success does not start with flashy production and a star attached to it - the song has to commercial played on an acoustic guitar.
Either way writing a song for yourself and hoping that it resonance with a wider listening audience or writing for a target audience/gener still does not guarentee success - perhaps a bit of both puts you in the neighbourhood
Frankie Rage
getting on with it anyway
"Maybe 'good' should be defined by the fans..."
Therefore, every hit song is a 'good song' (for those fans).
That's my ten pen'orth anyway!
Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
Yeah but that's like saying 5 + 5 = 10....everybody knows that. It goes without saying that everyone has their own view.
D
Diverdown
New member
Paul McCartneys "silly little love songs"
tongue i cheek comentary on the subject but I find that bassline captivating
and keeps me listeningas its genius
tongue i cheek comentary on the subject but I find that bassline captivating
and keeps me listeningas its genius
Frankie Rage
getting on with it anyway
Then we are in agreement.
Unless you are trying to say that there is some undefined 'good' and that The Macarena and some other songs fall outside that and 'aren't good', which is what you SEEM to be trying to say...
In which case you need to define that 'good'.
Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
Frankie Rage
getting on with it anyway
I can agree that every hit song isn't going to be liked by everybody. As you say, that's obvious...
But I think it's wrong to say that all hit songs aren't good.
Let me put it a different way...
I think 'The Macarena' is a good song.
You don't.
Which of us is right?
Moving on from that, I would argue that a hit song is more likely to be a "good" song than a non-hit song simply because it has the track record of a lot of people liking it.
In this context, I define "good" as being "liked by many people".
Of course, you have to be careful with that definition... in another context it could lead you up a gum tree!
Fx
But I think it's wrong to say that all hit songs aren't good.
Let me put it a different way...
I think 'The Macarena' is a good song.
You don't.
Which of us is right?
Moving on from that, I would argue that a hit song is more likely to be a "good" song than a non-hit song simply because it has the track record of a lot of people liking it.
In this context, I define "good" as being "liked by many people".
Of course, you have to be careful with that definition... in another context it could lead you up a gum tree!
Fx
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Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
Geez Frankie...you make my brain hurt
Frankie Rage
getting on with it anyway
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gecko zzed
Grumpy Mod
This thread has travelled up and down a number of alleyways, and is now on the boulevarde called "good song".
Here I will introduce an idea called fitness for purpose. A Ferrari F1 car is a suberbly engineered, purpose-built, racing machine, and fulfils that role particularly well. But it's of little use in driving down to the corner shop to buy a paper. A Toyota Corolla has no show of matching the Ferrari on the racetrack, but it is an economical, reliable and versatile car that, like the Ferrari, fills its particular role supebrly well, i.e. as a domestic sedan.
In this sense, 'good' is neither absolute nor universal; it's defined by fitness for purpose, i.e. whether something does the job expected of it.
The Macarena has a catchy hook, catchy melody and catchy dance steps. If we accept that its purpose is to jointly entertain listeners and make money for its creators, then we can see that it is highly fit for purpose, and is therefore 'good'. We should note that being fit for purpose is defined by the audience, not the creator.
Commercial success and public acclaim are not the only determinants of fitness for purpose. Sometimes we write songs for reasons that do include publicity and money. We may simply want to express ourselves, i.e. vent our feelings, convey a message or make some other point. A song about, and directed to, a lover may have an intended audience of just that one person. Fitness for purpose, then, is here defined as how well that person responds to that creation (hopefully, very favourably).
As an illustration, I have written a song in response to the December Challenge. Its fitness for purpose is defined by how well I meet the criteria of that challenge, and that in turn, is determined by the readership of this forum. But the challenge for me was more than just writing a song about a car or a house or whatever; it was whether, in responding to the challenge, I could create something that would unlock some emotions in the listener (or reader). Whether it has succeeded in that remains to be seen. Fitness for purpose, from my point of view as a creator, is determined by whether I can create an emotional connection with a listener.
Contrarily, someone said that one of my songs had moved him to tears. That was surprising and unexpected, because I had written that song in an attempt to capture a vaguely Celtic feel (the "I'm a long way from home, I miss everybody, I can't get back" theme that seems to feature a lot in Irish ballads). It was just an exercise in a particular style, the the purpose was just doing it. (I discovered it was only when the bagpipes came in that he was moved, and not my lyrics, but I'll still claim the glory.)
In my view, a song being good has little to do with a song being liked. Not everyone likes Macarena, but that does not detract from it being good, i.e. fit for purpose. Heaps of people enjoy Meatloaf, and I got heartily sick of playing "Paradise by the Dashboard Life" when I used to do discos. I think Meatloaf's music is pompous, overblown and turgid, but it is still great for drunken dances.
Goodness, in the context here, can be measured fairly objectively. What is the purpose and does it suit that purpose? Does it make money? Do people get up and dance? Do I get an encore? Does my lover look at me with melting eyes? Liking something is subjective, determined only by you. The Macarena is great for dances, and I like it for that. But it is musically and lyrically shallow, and I don't think much of it on an intellectual level.
When I review CDs or songs, I have no idea how others will respond to the music, so I become the notional audience. When I listen, I await the opening of a synapse in my brain . . . something that causes me to go 'wow'! There are a number of things that will do this, but primarily I look for inventiveness, originality, skill in wordcraft and musical excellence. And there is something else . . . an intangible quality of a song that transcends the technical dimensions
Elsewhere on this forum I mentioned that I thought "Imagine" was shallow, simplistic and superficial. It triggers no emotional connection with me, and that "Blowin' in the wind", is, in my view, a far more powerful song lyrically. I expect both do a reasonable job in making people aware of the folly and tragedy of war and conflict, which makes them both 'good', even though I like one and dislike the other.
Here I will introduce an idea called fitness for purpose. A Ferrari F1 car is a suberbly engineered, purpose-built, racing machine, and fulfils that role particularly well. But it's of little use in driving down to the corner shop to buy a paper. A Toyota Corolla has no show of matching the Ferrari on the racetrack, but it is an economical, reliable and versatile car that, like the Ferrari, fills its particular role supebrly well, i.e. as a domestic sedan.
In this sense, 'good' is neither absolute nor universal; it's defined by fitness for purpose, i.e. whether something does the job expected of it.
The Macarena has a catchy hook, catchy melody and catchy dance steps. If we accept that its purpose is to jointly entertain listeners and make money for its creators, then we can see that it is highly fit for purpose, and is therefore 'good'. We should note that being fit for purpose is defined by the audience, not the creator.
Commercial success and public acclaim are not the only determinants of fitness for purpose. Sometimes we write songs for reasons that do include publicity and money. We may simply want to express ourselves, i.e. vent our feelings, convey a message or make some other point. A song about, and directed to, a lover may have an intended audience of just that one person. Fitness for purpose, then, is here defined as how well that person responds to that creation (hopefully, very favourably).
As an illustration, I have written a song in response to the December Challenge. Its fitness for purpose is defined by how well I meet the criteria of that challenge, and that in turn, is determined by the readership of this forum. But the challenge for me was more than just writing a song about a car or a house or whatever; it was whether, in responding to the challenge, I could create something that would unlock some emotions in the listener (or reader). Whether it has succeeded in that remains to be seen. Fitness for purpose, from my point of view as a creator, is determined by whether I can create an emotional connection with a listener.
Contrarily, someone said that one of my songs had moved him to tears. That was surprising and unexpected, because I had written that song in an attempt to capture a vaguely Celtic feel (the "I'm a long way from home, I miss everybody, I can't get back" theme that seems to feature a lot in Irish ballads). It was just an exercise in a particular style, the the purpose was just doing it. (I discovered it was only when the bagpipes came in that he was moved, and not my lyrics, but I'll still claim the glory.)
In my view, a song being good has little to do with a song being liked. Not everyone likes Macarena, but that does not detract from it being good, i.e. fit for purpose. Heaps of people enjoy Meatloaf, and I got heartily sick of playing "Paradise by the Dashboard Life" when I used to do discos. I think Meatloaf's music is pompous, overblown and turgid, but it is still great for drunken dances.
Goodness, in the context here, can be measured fairly objectively. What is the purpose and does it suit that purpose? Does it make money? Do people get up and dance? Do I get an encore? Does my lover look at me with melting eyes? Liking something is subjective, determined only by you. The Macarena is great for dances, and I like it for that. But it is musically and lyrically shallow, and I don't think much of it on an intellectual level.
When I review CDs or songs, I have no idea how others will respond to the music, so I become the notional audience. When I listen, I await the opening of a synapse in my brain . . . something that causes me to go 'wow'! There are a number of things that will do this, but primarily I look for inventiveness, originality, skill in wordcraft and musical excellence. And there is something else . . . an intangible quality of a song that transcends the technical dimensions
Elsewhere on this forum I mentioned that I thought "Imagine" was shallow, simplistic and superficial. It triggers no emotional connection with me, and that "Blowin' in the wind", is, in my view, a far more powerful song lyrically. I expect both do a reasonable job in making people aware of the folly and tragedy of war and conflict, which makes them both 'good', even though I like one and dislike the other.
Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
Illegitimis non carborundum!
One man's shit is another man's shinola!
S
stevieb
Just another guy, really.
Hey! That particular chord takes six fingers!
Well, SO?? You got ten...
Whatmysay
New member
My stuff makes me cry all the time, but not for a good reason
Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
Frankie Rage
getting on with it anyway
I know that I write from the heart. That much I'm sure of. I've got hundreds of songs no one but me has even heard. Of course, like any writer I'd like a hit song. Why not? But what drives me to write is something else all together.
And what would that be then, Frankie?
I don't effing know, do I?!
And what would that be then, Frankie?
I don't effing know, do I?!
Chili
Site Moderator
I've had people tell me my songs gave them chills. I think they meant convulsions...