The correct recording meter??

S

storoi90

New member
Hi!

So i just got the K-meter demo from Audio Pluggers, and i need some help confirming or dismissing my understanding of how the correct levels work when recording and monitoring.
The plugin comes with a K-12, K-14 and a K-20 setting, which i assume is the equivalent to -12 Dbfs, -14 Dbfs and -20 Dbfs. And the way you check your correct levels is if your hitting around 0 RMS (the average).

Now in one of my sessions, i put the plugin on the master bus and on my individual tracks to check my levels.. and they were HOT.
The master had around +6 RMS, and was peaking at +18 RMS.. which i assume is to much.. at least if you´re going for the standard clean music, with headroom for the master engineer (which i would like to try for a change :P). The individual tracks i looked at were all a couple of RMS over at K-14 setting.

Now, i just started getting in to the importance of gain staging within a mix, and i wanna get this RMS-input thing right when i am recording.
The guys at Audio Pluggers talked about compressors and EQ´s wanting to have an input level of around -18 to -20 Dbfs (and that also goes for plugin-versions) in order for them to function properly, and not distort or emulate distortion. This is where i need conformation on my understanding on this. Here is my thought process on this:

If i have an instance of Battery 4, and i record a MIDI kick. Then i bounce this MIDI to Mono Audio, and i check with the K-meter at K-14 setting, and i see an RMS level of +6, and the peaking is even higher.. that´s to much right? That would indicate that the signal was recorded at -8 Dbfs - right or no? (-14 Dbfs +6). if that´s the case, then the reinessance compressor i use for the Kick-audio, is receiving to much input according to what it want´s, and it´s distorting. It´s actually receiving 12 Dbfs more then what it´s designed to work with.

So what i am thinking of doing, is before i bounce my MIDI kick (and my other MIDI sources) to Audio, i check that it´s average RMS level is around 0 on the K-20 setting.
This would indicate that the audio was recorded at around -18 to -20 Dbfs.
This would in general mean i would have to lower the output volume of most of my VI´s. Taking Ultrabeat for instance. To get the right RMS level, i would have to turn the master output down to around -10 (default is at 0), in order to record at around -18 Dbfs.

Now i know i have a "healthy" audio file, that the compressors/EQ plugins want to process without distorting it.

Am i on the right track or no?
 
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RMS levels of +6 are *so* too hot that they're hardly even possible except in a floating-point environment. And turning stuff down after the fact isn't necessarily the same as having headroom from the start and at every possible point in every conceivable stage in the game (which is what you should be fighting for, insisting on and not settling for anything else).

I hardly speak MIDI -- I don't use VSTi's -- So I don't particularly know if rendering them out "hot" is the same as - say, clipping an input. If there's damage, turning it down doesn't fix the damage - It just lowers the level of everything (including the damage).

The "right track" is having plenty of headroom at every point during every phase of production.

And you'd probably get more attention to this if it wasn't in the mastering forum, so maybe the mods will move it somewhere.
 
The K-Meter is primarily for mastering. Don't use it on tracks - that's not what it's for. Simply aim for record levels to average around -18dBFS using the standard meters in your DAW, lower if you have especially dynamic sources. The K-Meter might have some benefit on the main bus during mixdown, but proper level setting habits and your DAW's meters should be sufficient to get that done.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
The K-Meter is primarily for mastering. Don't use it on tracks - that's not what it's for. Simply aim for record levels to average around -18dBFS using the standard meters in your DAW
Click to expand...

So lower the volume-fader on the track with the VST until you´re recording around -18 dBFS? Is it even certain that you have to do this with VST´s? I´ve heard that the -18dBFS is to maximize the input of an external source, and that it had something to do with the conversion process of that source?

By the way, sorry if this is the wrong spot for this thread. Unsure where i needed to put it.
 
storoi90 said:
So lower the volume-fader on the track with the VST until you´re recording around -18 dBFS? Is it even certain that you have to do this with VST´s? I´ve heard that the -18dBFS is to maximize the input of an external source, and that it had something to do with the conversion process of that source?

By the way, sorry if this is the wrong spot for this thread. Unsure where i needed to put it.
Click to expand...

For existing audio that's not the right level use the gain function to lower the volume. In Pro Tools it's called clip gain. In Sony Vegas it's just called gain. This sets the audio to the right level ahead of all the other processing like inserts, sends, volume fader etc.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
For existing audio that's not the right level use the gain function to lower the volume. In Pro Tools it's called clip gain.
Click to expand...

For existing audio - yes. In logic pro x you can now adjust the gain within the flex-pitch tool. So what you´re saying is record the audio at any dBFS, then adjust it to be around -18 dBFS with clip gain. Then after that compress, make it louder if necessary? I mean you can´t adjust the level with clip gain until the material that you want to record, actually is recorded...

I guess what one could do in logic, is put the Gain-plugin on the VST track, then lower the gain until you´re around -18 dBFS on the level-meter. Then record MIDI, then bounce.

But again.. does anybody here know if this is even necessary with VST´s?
 
storoi90 said:
For existing audio - yes. In logic pro x you can now adjust the gain within the flex-pitch tool. So what you´re saying is record the audio at any dBFS, then adjust it to be around -18 dBFS with clip gain.
Click to expand...

Yes, about -18dBFS average, meaning the level is spending more or less the same amount of time above and below -18dBFS. Let percussive sounds peak a bit above -18dBFS, maybe -12dBFS.

storoi90 said:
Then after that compress, make it louder if necessary?
Click to expand...

You don't need to make them louder if they're all around that level. Just balance them together and leave yourself plenty of headroom on the main bus.

storoi90 said:
I mean you can´t adjust the level with clip gain until the material that you want to record, actually is recorded...
Click to expand...

When recording real sounds you simply set the record gain to get -18dBFS average levels.

storoi90 said:
I guess what one could do in logic, is put the Gain-plugin on the VST track, then lower the gain until you´re around -18 dBFS on the level-meter. Then record MIDI, then bounce.
Click to expand...

MIDI's not my specialty so I don't know for sure. Perhaps that would work, or maybe you can adjust a MIDI volume setting so the audio level comes out around -18dBFS. In any case you don't need to be aiming for higher average levels until mastering. During recording and mixing you will be better off preserving that headroom by funneling all your track levels toward that -18dBFS region. And you don't need the K-Meter to do that.
 
Recording and mixing levels used to confuse the heck out of me too, but I did a lot of reading up on the subject and John who posted above wrote an excellent article on it. Basically when you record, you should aim for your meters to peak at around -12dbfs. You'd be surprised how many instruments will have an rms reading of -20/-18 rms dbfs when peaking at -12dbfs, exceptions might be drums and synths, drums would have a lower rms level and synths a higher rms, so for dums I usually let them peak a little higher, maybe around -8dbfs and synths a little lower maybe -14dbfs. So thats what levels you should record at.
If you've already recorded your audio hotter than this, then you should have your track fader at unity gain and use a gain plugin to reduce the gain of your audio until your meters are reading the figures stated above while your track fader is still at unity.
With regards to VSTI's, I adjust the output of the vsti to give me the levels I want, So for example, I use addictive drums, with each mic going to a track in my daw, I just adjust the fader in the mixer of addictive drums so that it outputs the levels I want into the track in my daw.
I have read somewhere that plugin manufacturers take into account these levels and configure their plugins to be at their optimum at these levels, how true this is I'm not sure. I always make sure that the input of each plugin is roughly the same as the input into the first plugin on each track, if its not I adjust the output of the previous plugin.
With the k14 system, you should just use that when your mastering a song. I use the k14 system now and my music sounds much better for it. On my master bus in the mix I know I'm on the right track if I'm peaking at -6dbfs and my rms is -18dbfs, I was mastering a song today using the k14 system and got my rms to 0 without any gain reduction but I had some compression beforehand, it coressponded to -12rms in old money.
I hope I've added something of value to this thread and helped you a bit. I've been where you are.
 
Wow, thanks so much both @bouldersoundguy and @sausy1981. Great info from the both of you!

I will definitely try setting all of my VI´s outputs so that i peak at around -18 dbfs when recording them. One thing is very certain, i have broken all the "rules" when it comes to headroom. i used to record around -6 or -9, which is the general or default metering you get without adjusting the output on the VI´s. But as you guys say, it´s a confusing subject. Especially when Logic Pro (and other DAW´s for that matter) come with the default fader settings so high. I have also taken the advice from the guys at Audio Pluggers and switched my metering settings in Logic from exponential to sectional dB-linear. This expands the metering view from 0-30 to 0-60 dB. I guess the 0-30 setting makes everything looks like your faders are to low, when infact, they are not.

I can´t believe i haven´t been aware of how important this headroom subject really is, and recording at the right volume. Here i was struggling like crazy to create depth and width in my tracks, without even realizing how impossible that was without no headroom, and basically all tracks fighting to be as loud as possible.

And as @Bouldersoundguy pointet out, it´s definitely better to balance tracks relatively on lower volumes to leave headroom. But one thing i have to say though, the reason this is often overlooked (in my opinion), is that it´s obviously less satisfying to mix and record at lower levels. So you crank up the volume faders, record at hotter levels. Sounds good when you´re doing it, but you don´t realize you are basically painting yourself in to a corner with no where to go further down the road.

So i guess to keep the recording process more fun and interesting with a little more volume, would you guys agree it´s okey to do it like this:

1. Record at peaks of -18 dBFS and keep headroom for all your tracks (keep faders as low as possible)

2. Put a limiter on the master buss right away to keep everything at a level that you at least can hear what´s going on.
(Just for the recording process. Turn off the limiter, or turn it down when mixing. Since it´s better to learn to mix on lower volumes)

And before sending it to mixing or mastering, turn off the limiter, and check with the k-meter that you are peaking at 0 rms with the K-20 setting, and that all your tracks have a good amount of headroom.

I guess if one is mixing and mastering themselves, it´s okey to use the K-12 or K-14 setting with a limiter engaged when bouncing it.

I was checking out the demo track session that came with Logic Pro X. Helena Beat by Foster the People, and they had to have been mastering themselves. The K-meter was peaking at +8 +9 RMS at the K-14 setting on the master bus. But that was with Limiter, Linear Phase EQ etc. engaged. So i guess they did it all themselves. Without the limiter, they had an average (0-3 RMS) levels on the K-14 setting.
 
The question is this: Will it sound better if you turn it down? In most cases it probably ultimately will. Maybe, though, you like the sound you're getting now from slamming whatever VSTi into whatever VST comp. Turn it down, lose the distortion, and then struggle to get it to sound as cool as it did when you were "breaking the rules".

Edit - a little further. If you're using a clean digital compressor, then you can just correct for input levels with the threshold control. If you're using an emulated compressor but you don't want that distortion, then why aren't you just using the clean compressor?

Ignore K metering in tracking. Use your DAW's meters. They're usually calibrated so that nominal line level (0VU) into (and out of) your interface is -18dbfs. You could start to bring in the K metering in mixing, but I would probably wait until later when I'm really trying to fine tune the combined dynamics. Mix with your ears. Then check the meter and figure out which instrument is poking out that little bit too much and beat it into submission.
 
1. Record at peaks of -18 dBFS and keep headroom for all your tracks (keep faders as low as possible)
Click to expand...
I'd suggest recording with the "meat" around -18dBFS -- But with your faders at or around unity. Bringing your faders down doesn't affect the input level --

2. Put a limiter on the master buss right away to keep everything at a level that you at least can hear what´s going on.
Click to expand...
Just to check it occasionally, maybe.
 
I would reccommend recording with peaks at -12dbfs, Thats the peak of your signal. this more often then not is equivalant to -18dbfs rms. Whether you use the rms value or the peak value is up to you, as I said already I would recommend using the peak value of -12dbfs.

Don't put a limiter on your master buss, just make sure as your mixing that your master buss does not exceed -6dbfs PEAKING.

Forget about using the k-meter while mixing. The k meter is should be only used in your mastering session to measure your levels after you've applied all your processing.

Also if your using these levels correctly then your faders should be higher up on the scale when your mixing which gives you better resolution.
Here's a link to John Scrips article, I cannot stress enough that you should read this as many times as it takes to understand it.
Proper Audio Recording Levels | Rants, Articles
 
storoi90 said:
1. Record at peaks of -18 dBFS and keep headroom for all your tracks (keep faders as low as possible)
Click to expand...

Make your average levels around -18dBFS. Let the peaks fall where they may, unless you run out of headroom with something extremely dynamic or percussive, then go lower.

storoi90 said:
2. Put a limiter on the master buss right away to keep everything at a level that you at least can hear what´s going on.
(Just for the recording process. Turn off the limiter, or turn it down when mixing. Since it´s better to learn to mix on lower volumes
Click to expand...

Don't even put a limiter on it. Turn up your playback level if you can't hear stuff.
 
here's how I record everything: get the AVERAGE level going in at -18dBFS digital scale, and have PEAKS no more than -3dBFS but ideally closer to -10dBFS, try to aim for these levels only when recording. Then for mixing I always use the K-20 system for classical and jazz, and K-14 for all other styles, K-12 is something that I have never used because for the styles I mix it's not even relivant, the only thing I would probably use it for is metal and aggressive annoying pop music like beiber :thumbs up:
 
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