The Concept of The Mastering Songwriter

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J.C. Scott

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I'd like to present the concept of the "mastering songwriter." This is a concept I've been giving thought and consideration to for some time, and I believe (although not perfect) it is analogous to a mastering engineer. Ever heard a completed song and thought to yourself, you know, if they would've changed that/those (one) part(s) it would've really made the song complete/perfect? Perhaps you've heard a song and thought to yourself, wow, that song is absolutely perfect in every way; I wish I'd wrote it! Then perhaps you can relate to this concept.

To quote Bob Katz, "Mastering is the last creative step in the audio production process, the bridge between mixing and replication -- your last chance to enhance sound or repair problems in an acoustically-designed room-an audio microscope. Mastering engineers lend an objective, experienced ear to your work; we (the mastering engineer) are familiar with what can go wrong technically and aesthetically. Sometimes all we may do is -- nothing! The simple act of approval means the mix is ready for pressing. Other times we may help you work on that problem song you just couldn't get right in the mix, or add the final touch that makes a record sound finished..."

Basically, a mastering songwriter would be one who listens to the final arrangement of a song (with a decent layer of production if needed) to guage it's readiness for solidification. One of the main purposes of the mastering songwriter would be to offer a fresh set of ears. For example, one of the main reasons we ultimately turn our final mix over to a mastering engineer is because he, himself, offers us a fresh set of ears and can identify problem areas in a mix that we may have missed due to our desensitization of elements present in said mix. For instance, we may overlook problems associated with those elements because we've heard the mix hundreds, if not thousands, of times.

The analogy tends to fall to imperfection in this sense; a mastering engineer employs the use of the very best audio equipment to aid him in determining those problem areas. However, I guess one could say that, in a similar fashion, a mastering songwriter would need to be one who has a very acute vision of what does and doesn't work in a song. This is why just any fresh set of ears would not suffice; not everyone has this ability and, in my opinion, many do not possess an extremely refined form of it if they do. The person would need to be one who can take even a very rough idea and turn it into gold, or take a very refined idea and polish it to the point of perfection, or perhaps they do nothing at all, for the simple reason that the song is sufficient as is. Perhaps you can understand where I'm going with this concept.

Some or many may object to the notion of a mastering songwriter based on the high level of subjectivity associated with songwriting itself. After all, songwriting is nearly entirely subjective; as they say, one mans gold is another mans trash. However, I would simply quanlify my sentiments by saying that when people share the same vision, one may be able to offer input that doesn't differ from the original songwriting idea but complements it, just as a mastering engineer attempts to compliment a final mix. Overall however, I believe the basic concept is one that deserves further development and consideration.

Thanks for taking the time to read this post, and your feedback is welcomed.
 
J.C. Scott said:
Overall however, I believe the basic concept is one that deserves further development and consideration.
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I agree. Ideally that is what is done in places like this forum. I think that the idea of another person to bounce ideas off and work up a piece of music is also time tested. (Rogers/Hammerstein, Lennon/McCartney)
 
I tend to agree somewhat in the respect that forums such as this can be a help, however the idea behind the mastering songwriter is roughly the same as that behind the mastering engineer; the person is (ideally) a professional and therefore a trusted source, in contrast to varying levels of (potentially and typically) nonprofessional opinion.

To elaborate, you can certainly gain a lot of positive and constructive feedback at a forum such as this(and elsewhere on the net), although a person really has no way of knowing how trustworthy said feedback really is. This is analogous to mastering, whereby many forum participants can offer varying levels of positive/negative/constructive feedback regarding the state of your mix, however, if you were really serious, would you trust said opinions enough to do it all yourself and submit it to a record company, or would you turn your work over to a professional first, who (ideally) must certainly know his art because he gets paid to do it for a living, then submit it to a record company for perusal?
 
While the concept is valid and the comparison to a matering enginner is reasonable. there is one fundmental flaw.

As you indicate determining who is a "master" is very subjective - but perhaps me can make it more objective. Let's anticipate that to quantify and qualify a "master songwriter" we would be looking for someone with a solid track record of "hit records". We then must anticipate that this writer (who let us assume, is still trying to get his/her next hit) is available and willing to commit time (which could be used to advance thier own carreer) to provide advice and guidance to an up & coming writer.

Why would a writer, who depends on writing success to pay the bills, want to help a potential competitor. Professional songwriting can be (and on a whole indeed is) a very competitive, and cutthroat business. I know writer's who will not share the contact info for the singers/musicians they use and heaven forbid that a writer share contact info for a publisher.

I truely like the idea of someone to provide guideance - I think in any business we must all look to people to help us succeed, but the road to using a master songwriter is paved with many roadblocks.

Perhaps a more realistic approach (assuming you have what you believe is strong material to start with) would be to find a publisher with a track record in the genre you write in (this is something that can be quantified rather easily). A good publisher can provide good basic info such as "the verse is good, but there is no hook in the chorus" - or - " the melody in the chorus is great, but the verse does not build," etc.

For most I think the best we can hope for is to find a co-writer who we can trust and work with, one who we feel has strengh to offset our weakness.
 
mikeh said:
Why would a writer, who depends on writing success to pay the bills, want to help a potential competitor. Professional songwriting can be (and on a whole indeed is) a very competitive, and cutthroat business. I know writer's who will not share the contact info for the singers/musicians they use and heaven forbid that a writer share contact info for a publisher.
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Hypothetically, if we adopt your theory of how such an endeavor might work for a moment, such an individual may potentially be a person who is, to put it bluntly, past their prime and / or is no longer presentable, if you will. Assuming the person were still chasing his/her own career and attempting to make a name for themselves, it's not unreasonable to assume they may have no time for (or interest in) such a career move. However, I don't consider it farfetched or unreasonable to assume there may be songwriters who've made their mark and aren't quite ready to hang their hat and retire. They may find that offering their songwriting skills to aspiring / up and coming writers allows them an outlet to expand / express their talent beyond the typical lifespan associated with a successful career. This is just one of many possible variations on the concept, however.

On the issue of competitiveness, unless two separate artists were working on the same material and asking the same mastering songwriter for assistance, I fail to see the conflict of interest(in light of the above). In general (and personally) I don't view songwriting as competitive in the traditional sense that one might view sports for example. From my perspective, I see artists helping one another (either directly or indirectly) more than not. For example, making guest appearances or co-writing a melody with an artist of the same genre, or even one which they admire.
 
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If indeed, a previously successful songwriter, who was no longer trying for a hit, (although I would be so bold as to suggest no matter how long out of the "industry" the desire for one more hit and/or financial demands would always leave a writer "on the hunt"), and if one were to know how to make a connection with such a master writer - then perhaps the concept would work. Cetainly, it may be possible to approach such a person to be a co-writer.

I would not be surprised is some once successful writers would be pleased if a talented writer chose to seek them out as a mentor - and perhaps they would willingly offer their expertise (perhaps in exchange for some writing credit). Or perhaps, they would be willing to charge a fee (much like a mastering engineer) for a couple of hours (a private seminar if you will).

It is a concept not without some merit. Perhaps an enterprising individual (perhaps you if you truly believe in your concept) could read credits to determine a worthy candidate (or perhaps pay for a subscription of Billboard)
to try to track down some previously applauded writer to seek such guidance.

The more I think about this, the more I find it doable - although even having someone like Carole KIng as a personal mentor would not assure success - but it sure couldn't hurt.
 
I believe the power behind the concept lies in the sense of objectivity an artist would gain. All too often we as songwriters become too close to our work through constant exposure. If we could only hear our compositions as though we were listening for the first time, much as the mastering engineer hears a finalized mix and makes judgements with no prior exposure, we would be in a better position to judge the quality thereof with clarity. Many artists can't simply detach from their work and listen as though they've never heard it before, therefore what is needed is a fresh set of (trusted) ears to ground us and center our efforts.

Depending on the recommendations provided by the mastering songwriter, it could likely entail far more studio footwork (which many artists may consider a major drawback and therefore forgo) to implement. However, in my opinion, the fruits of such labor would ultimately yield far superior results in the end, in contrast to releasing a finalized first draft of said work. From my perspective, if we adopted / applied the current approach most songwriters currently use to production, it would be the equivalent of releasing a finalized mix without mastering.
 
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chazba said:
Here you go J.C
Check out www.songmd.com
Maybe just what you are looking for.


chazba
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Molly's got a huge discography. Sounds like the expert that you might be looking for. Impressive credits.
 
Yeah, I love reading her articles. I have never used her service directly but she can be very inspiring. Just the ticket when I'm down or blocked. You gotta love her sense of humor too.

chazba
 
I'm guessing that this whole idea (of the "Mastering Songwriter") applies to people who are trying to write hit songs and market them, correct?

You're not proposing the idea for everyone, right?

I'm a songwriter, and I certainly wouldn't want some of those "professional" songwriters giving me input. Well, I guess I should rephrase that. I don't mind input ever, but I certainly wouldn't pay for them to (in essence) provide input that would result in my songs sounding more "commercial," "accessible," or "hit-worthy."

But ... for those people that are trying to write hits and market their songs, I think it's a good idea. I'm just not one of those people. I mean, don't get me wrong. If someone told me all I had to do was write a few hit country songs and I'd be set for life, I certainly wouldn't mind doing that --- if I knew it was a sure thing. (I'm not one of those people who would refuse to write a hit for the sake of a hit based on principle or something.) But I don't feel compelled to work on it hard enough to beat the ridiculously stacked odds. I get more satisfaction from writing what I want.
 
famous beagle said:
I'm guessing that this whole idea (of the "Mastering Songwriter") applies to people who are trying to write hit songs and market them, correct?

You're not proposing the idea for everyone, right?

I'm a songwriter, and I certainly wouldn't want some of those "professional" songwriters giving me input. Well, I guess I should rephrase that. I don't mind input ever, but I certainly wouldn't pay for them to (in essence) provide input that would result in my songs sounding more "commercial," "accessible," or "hit-worthy."

But ... for those people that are trying to write hits and market their songs, I think it's a good idea. I'm just not one of those people. I mean, don't get me wrong. If someone told me all I had to do was write a few hit country songs and I'd be set for life, I certainly wouldn't mind doing that --- if I knew it was a sure thing. (I'm not one of those people who would refuse to write a hit for the sake of a hit based on principle or something.) But I don't feel compelled to work on it hard enough to beat the ridiculously stacked odds. I get more satisfaction from writing what I want.
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Just as a great number of people wouldn't take their mix to a mastering engineer who specializes in mastering hot for commercial purposes if they have no interest in crushing the life out of their song, you'd likely pick and choose a mastering songwriter that specializes in the style of music that you prefer and one whose resume you respect.

However, just as some individuals feel comfortable mastering their own mixes(regardless of the end result), this idea may not be for everyone.
 
chazba said:
Here you go J.C
Check out www.songmd.com
Maybe just what you are looking for.


chazba
Click to expand...
Yes, the idea behind her service is basically the same(with different terminology - 'songwriting consultant'), although after listening to her work, I, personally, wouldn't hire her as a mastering songwriter/songwriting consultant.
 
J.C. Scott said:
Yes, the idea behind her service is basically the same(with different terminology - 'songwriting consultant'), although after listening to her work, I, personally, wouldn't hire her as a mastering songwriter/songwriting consultant.
Click to expand...

See ... here again ... I think the subject of songwriting is just a little too subjective for this to work on the grand scale.
 
famous beagle said:
See ... here again ... I think the subject of songwriting is just a little too subjective for this to work on the grand scale.
Click to expand...
While I understand your point, I wouldn't go quite that far. I think, as always, engineers should be chosen based on their ability to complement your work. I don't know about you but given the choice, I wouldn't take my music to just any mastering engineer; there are many who are better at mastering certain genre's of music more than others, for example. I can't see why this wouldn't apply equally to songwriting.
 
J.C. Scott said:
While I understand your point, I wouldn't go quite that far. I think, as always, engineers should be chosen based on their ability to complement your work. I don't know about you but given the choice, I wouldn't take my music to just any mastering engineer; there are many who are better at mastering certain genre's of music more than others, for example. I can't see why this wouldn't apply equally to songwriting.
Click to expand...

I simply think there are many more parameters involved in songwriting than in audio mastering, and I think that's the main difference.

I do see the value in what you're suggesting; I just don't know how well it would apply in real-world situations.
 
J.C. Scott said:
I'd like to present the concept of the "mastering songwriter." This is a concept I've been giving thought and consideration to for some time, and I believe (although not perfect) it is analogous to a mastering engineer. Ever heard a completed song and thought to yourself, you know, if they would've changed that/those (one) part(s) it would've really made the song complete/perfect? Perhaps you've heard a song and thought to yourself, wow, that song is absolutely perfect in every way; I wish I'd wrote it! Then perhaps you can relate to this concept.

To quote Bob Katz, "Mastering is the last creative step in the audio production process, the bridge between mixing and replication -- your last chance to enhance sound or repair problems in an acoustically-designed room-an audio microscope. Mastering engineers lend an objective, experienced ear to your work; we (the mastering engineer) are familiar with what can go wrong technically and aesthetically. Sometimes all we may do is -- nothing! The simple act of approval means the mix is ready for pressing. Other times we may help you work on that problem song you just couldn't get right in the mix, or add the final touch that makes a record sound finished..."

Basically, a mastering songwriter would be one who listens to the final arrangement of a song (with a decent layer of production if needed) to guage it's readiness for solidification. One of the main purposes of the mastering songwriter would be to offer a fresh set of ears. For example, one of the main reasons we ultimately turn our final mix over to a mastering engineer is because he, himself, offers us a fresh set of ears and can identify problem areas in a mix that we may have missed due to our desensitization of elements present in said mix. For instance, we may overlook problems associated with those elements because we've heard the mix hundreds, if not thousands, of times.

The analogy tends to fall to imperfection in this sense; a mastering engineer employs the use of the very best audio equipment to aid him in determining those problem areas. However, I guess one could say that, in a similar fashion, a mastering songwriter would need to be one who has a very acute vision of what does and doesn't work in a song. This is why just any fresh set of ears would not suffice; not everyone has this ability and, in my opinion, many do not possess an extremely refined form of it if they do. The person would need to be one who can take even a very rough idea and turn it into gold, or take a very refined idea and polish it to the point of perfection, or perhaps they do nothing at all, for the simple reason that the song is sufficient as is. Perhaps you can understand where I'm going with this concept.

Some or many may object to the notion of a mastering songwriter based on the high level of subjectivity associated with songwriting itself. After all, songwriting is nearly entirely subjective; as they say, one mans gold is another mans trash. However, I would simply quanlify my sentiments by saying that when people share the same vision, one may be able to offer input that doesn't differ from the original songwriting idea but complements it, just as a mastering engineer attempts to compliment a final mix. Overall however, I believe the basic concept is one that deserves further development and consideration.

Thanks for taking the time to read this post, and your feedback is welcomed.
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"Mastering Songwriter" is an interesting idea. But the way you explain it makes me wonder if you include "selecting instruments, composing parts and performing the musical instruments" as part of the songwriting process. To me, that part is the responsibility of the producer, arranger, band leader -- someone like that, with whoever acts as "producer" as the "fresh-eared master". If you see that part of the process as "songwriting" then I can't relate to the concept and don't really have an opinion.

On the other hand, if "songwriting" is the development of the lyric and the melody (notes to which the lyric will be sung) then a "Mastering Songwriter" could be a useful edition to the process. A simple demo (vocal and guitar (or keys) and, possibly, bass and drums) could be presented to the mastering songwriter and (much like an editor of a novel) he would make changes or offer suggestions to improve the lyric or melody. Because of copywrite issues, I doubt that this would ever be done by an independent third party for a fee. But if a songwriter was working with a publisher who had a "Mastering Songwriter" on staff in a traditional "editor" position, it could work quite well.

My guess is that for well-connected songwriters a version of this already exists. For unconnected writers, the only attention your song normally gets from a major publisher is the first few seconds get listened to, followed by your hard work getting chunked into the trash.

If a group of serious and hard working independent songwriters banded together to form their own publishing house, The "Mastering Songwriter" or "Song Editor" might become a useful reality.

Don
 
The local chapter of Nashville Songwriter's Association (NSA) is actually providing a forum in Jan 07 is which a well known (commercially succesful) writer will meet with NSA members to listen to songs and offer constructive thoughts, etc) - in essense a "mastering session".

I don't have the information in front of me and I don't recall the guy's name - but I did recognize the names of some of the songs he's writen and the artists he's written for.

I have not yet seen what the fee will be to meet with this guy - but if it is "reasonable" I may do it, just to see what a "master writer" can offer.

I've never really been a master of anything - although I when I was young I fished alot, and I was an expert putting a worm on a hook - would that make me a master baiter???
 
I got hooked up with a writers service out of nashville many years ago. For a fee, they would review and comment on my songs. I will not mention the name of the outfit. Essentially, what I got back after several exchanges involving 4-5 songs plus re-writes etc, was a series of form letters, mostly identical, with the same comments even after several re-writes. It was a scam! no shit. As writers we seem to be very vulnerable to people who hold out a thread of success and recognition, no to mention money, and sometimes we seem to be willing to sacrifice common sense for a "shot"
Be very careful and check out thoroughly before you send in a nickel.


chazba
 
chazba,

I certainly agree that it can be too easy to get lured by someone else's "success". I've been around the block and I'm no longer subseptable to scams (well I'm sure someone could scam me over something).

The NSA often has various artists attend a meeting or a dinner "meet and greet" when certain artists (mostly mid tier, touring acts) are in town.

Sometimes it is interesting to hear how thier carreers developed - and often it is boring as hell (I was a road musician for 7 years - but that doesn't mean my stories are any more worth hearing then any other musician's).

Since this guy is actually in town, and the concept is that writer's can meet with him personally, face to face (vs. the form letter route) - it may have some value (depending on the cost).

Like any class, any seminar, any educational video - you can always learn something - but at the end of the session, was it really worth the time spent and the cost??????
 
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