"The Bourne Legacy" Theme - With Drums (remix)

XeroTalent

New member
I think you might not like the kick sound because it's having trouble cutting through. It sounds like all lows but no snap to it. You might try removing some of the mid rangy stuff to enhance the highs and lows without boosting anything. It's really loose and flabby. Also, a trick I use sometimes is to add just a touch of distortion/saturation to make it heard.

The playing is good though! I like the tom fills and can hear them clearly. As with the snare.
 
I think you might not like the kick sound because it's having trouble cutting through. It sounds like all lows but no snap to it. You might try removing some of the mid rangy stuff to enhance the highs and lows without boosting anything. It's really loose and flabby. Also, a trick I use sometimes is to add just a touch of distortion/saturation to make it heard.

The playing is good though! I like the tom fills and can hear them clearly. As with the snare.

Thank you for the EQ advice... I'm somewhat of a newbie when it comes to EQ'ing, and can use all the help I can get. I'll play with the mid-range to see what I can pull out.

For reference, I'm using a relatively crappy CAD KD212 kick mic, about 2" away from where the beater strikes, inside the kick with no resonant head. If you can suggest a better mic'ing strategy, maybe that would also help. I've tried it with the reso head on (no port) and you could barely hear it, even when that track was soloed.
 
Ah yeah, that mic. I actually have the Cad Pro 7 piece myself with the same kick mic. I typically try to avoid using it as a studio I've been going to has an Audix D6 that sounds way better. I have found other uses for it though... Anyway, i found that when I did use it, only godly amounts of EQ could get the tone I was looking for. I find it super thick in the mids which makes it sound pretty murky, like what I mentioned in your song. It really benefits with a nice boost around 4K and a mid scoop. For me there was plenty of low stuff.

Maybe Greg_L will stumble onto your track too, because he uses the same pack I have with great results. I'm not sure if he uses that kick mic or not, but his drum tracks are pretty stellar.
 
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Do you use the KD212 at all, or is there an application that you find works well for that mic (floor tom maybe)?

I'm wondering if it's just a shitty mic, or if my placement could use some work (see above).
 
Here's my percussion arrangement added to The Piano Guys' version of "The Bourne Legacy" theme.

It took what felt like forever to get a solid take with mistakes I'm willing to live with.

VIDEO: Gamberg Vs Bourne - Bourne Legacy Theme (With Drums) - YouTube

MP3: Download it for FREE on my SoundCloud page:
The Bourne Legacy Theme - With Drums (FREE DOWNLOAD) by Xero Talent on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

I'm keen for any feedback on the mix, any recording tips, etc. (I'm still not happy with my kick sound at all.)

Thanks!
Sounds good, the kick needs more slap and more compression, boost the high mids and cut some of the low mids to get more slap.
Toms sound nice. Good drumming.

G
 
I saw the movie last weekend (with my son). He's 9, he didn't like it. He likes "non-stop action..."

We saw Total Recall on Sunday? He liked that :-) And after seeing it? I'm writing a new song, called; "Kate Beckensale's Hiney..."
 
Sounds good, the kick needs more slap and more compression, boost the high mids and cut some of the low mids to get more slap.
Toms sound nice. Good drumming.

G

OK, I've done the EQ adjustments as you indicated, and it still sounds muffled and "boomy" without that nice slap.... can you point me in the direction of some ballpark settings for compression? I'm pretty new at all of this....

Thanks for your help!
 
For kick compression try attack of 5ms and release of 50ms to start. Ratio of maybe 4:1 and set threshold so the compressor levels out the kicks more but doesn't take away too much attack. You can try a little longer attack time to leave more of the attack in, maybe up to 15ms at most.

If you can't get the punch with EQ then you are not EQing enough. Do not be scared to make drastic cuts and boost.
Try a big boost around 5k and a big (thinish) cut around 260Hz. By big I mean anything up to 15dB boost or cut.

I'll be interested to see how you get on.

G
 
For kick compression try attack of 5ms and release of 50ms to start. Ratio of maybe 4:1 and set threshold so the compressor levels out the kicks more but doesn't take away too much attack. You can try a little longer attack time to leave more of the attack in, maybe up to 15ms at most.

If you can't get the punch with EQ then you are not EQing enough. Do not be scared to make drastic cuts and boost.
Try a big boost around 5k and a big (thinish) cut around 260Hz. By big I mean anything up to 15dB boost or cut.

I'll be interested to see how you get on.

G

Getting that punchy kick has been the most problematic part of my recording. Everything else sounds good, but my kick is garbage.

Perhaps a basic question, but if I boost say 10db in a given range, the kick channel starts to peak, so should I be lowering the overall output on the channel by the same db amount, or just that range to bring it under the peak threshold?

(Hope that made sense!)

Or maybe I should try reversing the polarity?

Cheers mate, I'll definitely try this and upload an updated version for you to check out.
 
If it's clipping, yes, turn down either the output of the EQ or the track fader. if the EQ is clipping do it there, if it's not the EQ, either place is basically the same.

As for phase, if you think that might be an issue, which it very well could be, put your OH mics into mono (either pan them both center, or use a switch on your interface if there is one, or a plug that has the ability (i use a stereo widener set to 0) and then flip the phase on the Kick track, then flip it back, and listen closely. One is probably gonna sound better that the other. Do this without any processing.
 
If it's clipping, yes, turn down either the output of the EQ or the track fader. if the EQ is clipping do it there, if it's not the EQ, either place is basically the same.

As for phase, if you think that might be an issue, which it very well could be, put your OH mics into mono (either pan them both center, or use a switch on your interface if there is one, or a plug that has the ability (i use a stereo widener set to 0) and then flip the phase on the Kick track, then flip it back, and listen closely. One is probably gonna sound better that the other. Do this without any processing.

Ah ok thanks for the help.

Another basic question... does clipping = peaking?

By peaking, I mean the "peak" light on that track illuminates in my DAW (Reaper)... the peak light on my interface for that channel is not.
 
Getting that punchy kick has been the most problematic part of my recording. Everything else sounds good, but my kick is garbage.

Perhaps a basic question, but if I boost say 10db in a given range, the kick channel starts to peak, so should I be lowering the overall output on the channel by the same db amount, or just that range to bring it under the peak threshold?

(Hope that made sense!)

Or maybe I should try reversing the polarity?

Cheers mate, I'll definitely try this and upload an updated version for you to check out.
Before you even start mixing what to do is bring all the faders down about half way. This is your headroom so you can allow space for your Mix.
So when you do a big EQ boost make sure your plug-in is not peaking, leave a good few dB headroom in the plug-in to ensure no clipping (by bringing the plug-in output down), then also make sure the channel is not peaking either.
If you can't get the kick loud enough bring the rest of your tracks down, or do the quick fix and use a limiter.

G
 
If it's clipping, yes, turn down either the output of the EQ or the track fader. if the EQ is clipping do it there, if it's not the EQ, either place is basically the same.

As for phase, if you think that might be an issue, which it very well could be, put your OH mics into mono (either pan them both center, or use a switch on your interface if there is one, or a plug that has the ability (i use a stereo widener set to 0) and then flip the phase on the Kick track, then flip it back, and listen closely. One is probably gonna sound better that the other. Do this without any processing.
Its not so much what version sounds better, it is what has more low end. When drum tracks are out of phase the low end disappears.

G
 
Ah ok thanks for the help.

Another basic question... does clipping = peaking?

By peaking, I mean the "peak" light on that track illuminates in my DAW (Reaper)... the peak light on my interface for that channel is not.

Yes clipping is peaking. We call it clipping in the digital relm because you cannot go higher than 0dB so digital clips off the audio above 0dB.
If any lights are in the red that means it is clipping even if it is not clipping in your daw it may be clipping in your interface and vice-versa etc. So just always be aware of all inputs/outputs and their levels.

G
 
Wow, ok this is all great info :)

So a question about getting the initial mic levels before recording...

I'm using a Tascam 1800, and each channel has a trim dial. I'm basically getting a level for each mic just under where the clip light starts flashing at max volume... this is before the signal goes to my PC.

Is this the correct way to get levels, or should I also leave some headroom for the signal going into my interface?

Sorry for the newb questions, but I really appreciate the help!
 
Wow, ok this is all great info :)

So a question about getting the initial mic levels before recording...

I'm using a Tascam 1800, and each channel has a trim dial. I'm basically getting a level for each mic just under where the clip light starts flashing at max volume... this is before the signal goes to my PC.

Is this the correct way to get levels, or should I also leave some headroom for the signal going into my interface?

Sorry for the newb questions, but I really appreciate the help!
Leave headroom for sure.
I always record at 24bit so not really much loss of bits thus sound quality. I have my recordings peaking around -6dB usually so ensure no clipping and good headroom.

G
 
Nice stuff man, really lovin the toms. I can also chip in and say I use the CAD tour Pro 7 piece mic set. They're prolly the best drum mic set for the money despite the sh*tty kick drum.

As for finding a good kick sound, it's a problem most if not all new mixing engineers face especially with the horrid kick mic from CAD. But you make with what you got.
Like others say, first and foremost is the mic placement, I can recall a rumor that said Lars Ulrich and the studio spent days trying to get the "perfect" kick drum sound for a certain album by getting the right mic placement. After the mic is setting your headroom, the staple method is to record drums hot as possible without clipping, but in the case of the CAD kick drum mic, it might be better to turn the gain down just a tad bit to avoid catching too much low end. Unless you place the mic a few inches away from the batter head/mic hole.

In the DAW the next step is to EQ, this is fairly easy if you've got a good ear and a decent playback device like some studio headphones or studio monitors so you can catch and cut that unnecessary low end. A good place to start is to put a slight high pass around 50 hz(In the case of the CAD kick drum mic) and dip at around 250 hz and a bump at around 1.5k hz. This is pretty standard preset to start with EQing kick drums as they control the more vital and common frequency hotspots in a kick drum. But, your kick might be slightly different so mess around and judge with your ears.

After that is the hard part, compression, an engineer's best friend, but also worst enemy, pretty much is the best example of a double edged sword. In terms of drums, compression can really muddy your mix or make it sound just right. Most people just avoid it overall and slap a trigger on there, but IMO, in an ideal situation, that just takes the fun and learning experience out of the equation. I play a lot of rock/hard rock type music so I like to have a lot of punch cut through. For me, I usually set my attack to around 50ms, a sorta slow attack but just enough to set levels more evenly without forcing out too much dynamics and squashing the kick too much. As for release, I set it fairly quick, around 20ms or less. But again, that's my preference for my style of music. Should this have been an orchestral rock like your cover, I would have liked more thump than slap so maybe a quicker attack and a tad slower release. Again, mess around and judge with what your ears tell you to find the sweet spot. Next I set the threshold to about maybe -20db or more depending on how heavy the music is or how my kick sample is quality-wise. In your case I would set it a little less drastic, around -15db just so you have more dynamic and doesn't take away from the actual music itself.

That's pretty much the basics of it, various more experienced engineers use different methods like limiters, gates, band compressors, duplicate tracks, but that is something you will need to explore yourself to find which suits you and your music better. Personally I've found that a band compressor such as the SSL 4 band compressor from waves with the Chris Alge preset and tweaks to my liking has benefited my mixes as of recent. But for more dynamic and less heavy music styles, that may just ruin the mood and dynamics rather than help unless you really have a bad kick sample or it's very buried in the mix.

Use the internet to your advantage, there are various threads on this forum that address good a decent kick drum without going to such drastic measures. Youtube is also a very good source for learning techniques with mixing kick drums. But ultimately is up to how you can accumulate different techniques to suit your situation and style of music.

Good luck and happy mixing,

Ninja_Drummer
 
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