sjoko2
New member
Blue Bear Sound said:
Exactly
Exactly
sonusman
Banned
Bruce, do you have any links to where I might purchase that diderer. Is there any possible "factory direct" places where I might get it for like $800? 
Ethan, no doubt that if the rooms I have used those traps in were not treated at all except for those traps, I would probably hear a little flattening of the bass response in the room. But in many of the rooms I have worked in, deep bass has seldom been the real problem at mix position. Low mids have, and I have heard immediate improvements to that with something as simple (and cheap) as 2" compressed fiberglass. 3", even better (but I gotta admit, never used more than 2"....).
In a properly designed wall construction for total isolation in a studio, I could see maybe where bass traps are going to make a difference, but again, I just dont' see many around here doing 3 layered wall construction like that. Drywall on studs with insulation in the wall, and having air pockets around the room seems to take care of the low bass well enough to make me happy at mix position and in a good part of the room.
My favorite room I have ever done a lot of work in was my old mobile rig. NO bass problems in there, and no low mid problems either because the two front seats of the mobile home acted as low mids absorbers just fine. Also, the skin of the vehicles just let the deeper stuff roll on by for it to never return! It was sweet.
I like the concept of John's low mid absorbers. In most real life applications, an absorber like this is going to provide the best bang for the buck acoustical treatment in a room.
Ed
Ethan, no doubt that if the rooms I have used those traps in were not treated at all except for those traps, I would probably hear a little flattening of the bass response in the room. But in many of the rooms I have worked in, deep bass has seldom been the real problem at mix position. Low mids have, and I have heard immediate improvements to that with something as simple (and cheap) as 2" compressed fiberglass. 3", even better (but I gotta admit, never used more than 2"....).
In a properly designed wall construction for total isolation in a studio, I could see maybe where bass traps are going to make a difference, but again, I just dont' see many around here doing 3 layered wall construction like that. Drywall on studs with insulation in the wall, and having air pockets around the room seems to take care of the low bass well enough to make me happy at mix position and in a good part of the room.
My favorite room I have ever done a lot of work in was my old mobile rig. NO bass problems in there, and no low mid problems either because the two front seats of the mobile home acted as low mids absorbers just fine. Also, the skin of the vehicles just let the deeper stuff roll on by for it to never return! It was sweet.
I like the concept of John's low mid absorbers. In most real life applications, an absorber like this is going to provide the best bang for the buck acoustical treatment in a room.
Ed
Blue Bear Sound
New member
Best bet is the RND (Really Nice Diderer)... it sells for $300 but competes with Diderers 4 times the price!sonusman said:Bruce, do you have any links to where I might purchase that diderer. Is there any possible "factory direct" places where I might get it for like $800?
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
sonusman wrote
Hello Ed, say, can you explain what you mean by "air pockets around the room"
thanks
fitz
Hello Ed, say, can you explain what you mean by "air pockets around the room"
thanks
fitz
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
Hey Bruce, I have $1000 XLR panel for ya!
fitz
fitz
RICK FITZPATRICK
New member
Hahahahahahah!!! NO wonder! I used to have a old Ford van, with the front blocked off behind the front seats. Speakers mounted on ea side of the engine compartment facing the back, that were driven by an old 8 trk, (YES I said 8 trk continuous tape machine and if I hear anyone laugh about my age I'll kill ya
) .....that I would plug 2 guitars into for kickin back and writing songs. LOVED the sound in there. Especially Hendrix and Cream
Ok, you can laugh now
fitz
sonusman
Banned
Rick, one of the best methods for controlling deep bass is to have a wall that is not super rigid, such as drywall on studs, and an air pocket behind it before you hit another wall. In effect, each wall acts as it's own panel absorber. The bigger the air pocket, the better.
At the studio i work at, most of it is just standard home drywall on stud construction, but the walls in the control room and the wall in the tracking room are seperated by a furnace room, a kitchen area, and some storage rooms. Each room is at least 6 feet wide between the control and tracking room walls. In the kitchen, furnace, and storage rooms, you have quite a build up of bass. But in the control room, you hear pretty much nothing very low. We do get a tad bleed in the 400-maybe 2KHz region with a loud drummer, but nothing so bad that the monitors don't quite easily get over it.
Neither the tracking room nor the control room have any low bass build up that I can detect. Before some treatments address low mids were applied though, each room or course had the all too familiar "muddy" sound that many around here complain about in similar type of rooms.
Air pockets not only help with controlling low bass, but also help with isolation between rooms. In our case, we are lucky to have rooms between the rooms, so we get low bass control, as well as decent isolation. The rooms between the two rooms though do get hit with quite a bit of low bass in them!
Let's say that in the case that you are setting up a bedroom in your house to mix in. You have standard drywall on stud construction. Any of the rooms on the other side of your "music room" walls will indeed have quite a big of low bass in them, BUT, your music room is NOT going to be getting that low bass reflecting back into the room. Again, the standard drywall on studs construction is acting as a very usable low bass absorber.
Where bass traps come in handy is if you built a room to isolate from the next room, and used something like a layer of particle board, firtex, and drywall. This wall would be in fact VERY rigid, and would keep the low bass in the room. In this case, bass traps will help you out a lot.
At no point do I want to say that bass traps do not have a place in acoustical treatments. BUT, their actual intended application works best when many other acoustical and structural issues are solved in proper studio construction. For many around here who are not as concerned with isolation between rooms as much as just making their room sound a little better, bass traps aren't really contributing much because the walls in the average house do what they do well enough. But, those standard rooms DO in fact have a lot of problems in frequencies that are a little higher than most of these bass trap designs are meant to deal with.
Yes, bass traps can treat frequencies SOMEWHAT up to maybe around 400Hz. But they really don't start doing their things until down around 80Hz and below. Most people do not have much of a problem down that low and lower in their music rooms because of the "improper" construction used in them (by improper, I mean, a 'real' studio wouldn't have walls constructed that way usually. If you look at the "bang for the buck" factor, bass traps are quite an expensive way to deal with low mid frequencies, and DON'T deal with them all that well really when compared to other treatments that are more specific to the "real" problem. Kind of get the concept?
John Sayers has pushed low mid absorbers, and has been in my opinion very nice about not knocking bass traps in this forum, even though he damn well knows for a fact that they won't solve the problems people are trying to solve. He has quietly pushed people to try solutions that actually WORK for the common problems many around here have with acoustical treatments. I on the other hand decided to include bass traps on my "cure-all" list for a little fun. But in reality, it is not fun at all. I feel I am making a very good and valid point. If one was to look at the common rooms many around here are trying to treat, and listen to what an experienced studio designer has to say about treating them (John), bass traps wouldn't be talked about too often, yet, it seems every other tread lately has been about bass traps.
Sue me for pointing this stuff out guys. I am just trying to get people to think and learn about what their real problems are, and to get solutions that really work. I doubt that there is much anybody can show me as "good proof" that bass traps are the best bang for the buck solution for most rooms people around here are trying to treat. I hate seeing people lead to believe that they are a priority when they could spend that money on treatments that address far bigger issues in their rooms that deep bass.
Ed
At the studio i work at, most of it is just standard home drywall on stud construction, but the walls in the control room and the wall in the tracking room are seperated by a furnace room, a kitchen area, and some storage rooms. Each room is at least 6 feet wide between the control and tracking room walls. In the kitchen, furnace, and storage rooms, you have quite a build up of bass. But in the control room, you hear pretty much nothing very low. We do get a tad bleed in the 400-maybe 2KHz region with a loud drummer, but nothing so bad that the monitors don't quite easily get over it.
Neither the tracking room nor the control room have any low bass build up that I can detect. Before some treatments address low mids were applied though, each room or course had the all too familiar "muddy" sound that many around here complain about in similar type of rooms.
Air pockets not only help with controlling low bass, but also help with isolation between rooms. In our case, we are lucky to have rooms between the rooms, so we get low bass control, as well as decent isolation. The rooms between the two rooms though do get hit with quite a bit of low bass in them!
Let's say that in the case that you are setting up a bedroom in your house to mix in. You have standard drywall on stud construction. Any of the rooms on the other side of your "music room" walls will indeed have quite a big of low bass in them, BUT, your music room is NOT going to be getting that low bass reflecting back into the room. Again, the standard drywall on studs construction is acting as a very usable low bass absorber.
Where bass traps come in handy is if you built a room to isolate from the next room, and used something like a layer of particle board, firtex, and drywall. This wall would be in fact VERY rigid, and would keep the low bass in the room. In this case, bass traps will help you out a lot.
At no point do I want to say that bass traps do not have a place in acoustical treatments. BUT, their actual intended application works best when many other acoustical and structural issues are solved in proper studio construction. For many around here who are not as concerned with isolation between rooms as much as just making their room sound a little better, bass traps aren't really contributing much because the walls in the average house do what they do well enough. But, those standard rooms DO in fact have a lot of problems in frequencies that are a little higher than most of these bass trap designs are meant to deal with.
Yes, bass traps can treat frequencies SOMEWHAT up to maybe around 400Hz. But they really don't start doing their things until down around 80Hz and below. Most people do not have much of a problem down that low and lower in their music rooms because of the "improper" construction used in them (by improper, I mean, a 'real' studio wouldn't have walls constructed that way usually. If you look at the "bang for the buck" factor, bass traps are quite an expensive way to deal with low mid frequencies, and DON'T deal with them all that well really when compared to other treatments that are more specific to the "real" problem. Kind of get the concept?
John Sayers has pushed low mid absorbers, and has been in my opinion very nice about not knocking bass traps in this forum, even though he damn well knows for a fact that they won't solve the problems people are trying to solve. He has quietly pushed people to try solutions that actually WORK for the common problems many around here have with acoustical treatments. I on the other hand decided to include bass traps on my "cure-all" list for a little fun.
But in reality, it is not fun at all. I feel I am making a very good and valid point. If one was to look at the common rooms many around here are trying to treat, and listen to what an experienced studio designer has to say about treating them (John), bass traps wouldn't be talked about too often, yet, it seems every other tread lately has been about bass traps.Sue me for pointing this stuff out guys.
I am just trying to get people to think and learn about what their real problems are, and to get solutions that really work. I doubt that there is much anybody can show me as "good proof" that bass traps are the best bang for the buck solution for most rooms people around here are trying to treat. I hate seeing people lead to believe that they are a priority when they could spend that money on treatments that address far bigger issues in their rooms that deep bass.Ed
Roker1
New member
sonusman said:
Sonusman,
sorry tu jump in...I was just curious:
how is the communication between the live and CR in the studio, having those rooms in between?
thanks
cheers
sonusman
Banned
Roker1 said:
We spent about $400 for a two little camera's and 27" tv's to "see" each other between the two rooms. Works pretty good.
Ed
Roker1
New member
yeah cool...that's waht I thought, couldn't be anything else hey.... ...and how is that "electronic" sort of contact? It would take a while to get used to hey??
you said it works well....but how does it actually feel. There's not "real contact with artists and stuff...I never liked the idea of having cameras, eventhough i've seen and heard of 100s of studios that have 'em installed....
I vote for windows
thanks Ed
cheers
...and how is that "electronic" sort of contact? It would take a while to get used to hey??you said it works well....but how does it actually feel. There's not "real contact with artists and stuff...I never liked the idea of having cameras, eventhough i've seen and heard of 100s of studios that have 'em installed....
I vote for windows
thanks Ed
cheers
Gidge
Lapdance Test Dummy
this thread is chock full of useful info...hope everyone gets past that first post....
Ethan Winer
Acoustics Expert
Ed,
> deep bass has seldom been the real problem at mix position. Low mids have <
Again, maybe the real issue is semantics. What do you consider low bass, and what do you consider low mids? To me, the real need for bass traps is between, say, 80-100 and 300 Hz.
> My favorite room I have ever done a lot of work in was my old mobile rig. NO bass problems in there, and no low mid problems either because the two front seats of the mobile home acted as low mids absorbers just fine. <
The more relevant reason a car or truck has no bass problems is because the walls are so thin. Bass goes right through instead of being reflected within the "room."
--Ethan
> deep bass has seldom been the real problem at mix position. Low mids have <
Again, maybe the real issue is semantics. What do you consider low bass, and what do you consider low mids? To me, the real need for bass traps is between, say, 80-100 and 300 Hz.
> My favorite room I have ever done a lot of work in was my old mobile rig. NO bass problems in there, and no low mid problems either because the two front seats of the mobile home acted as low mids absorbers just fine. <
The more relevant reason a car or truck has no bass problems is because the walls are so thin. Bass goes right through instead of being reflected within the "room."
--Ethan
C
complexprocess
New member
So basically, in rooms designed as studios with rigid walls, bass traps are very valuable. In the common home-recordists converted bedroom, they are less of a priority because the low frequencies bleed through the walls more than they reflect back. Did I get that straight? Based on all of the posts, this seems a logical conclusion. Hooray! End of argument.
Ethan Winer
Acoustics Expert
CP,
> In the common home-recordists converted bedroom, they are less of a priority because the low frequencies bleed through the walls more than they reflect back. <
Not really. The extremely low frequencies - like below 50 Hz. or so - will pass through the walls and/or be absorbed. But most low frequency room problems are between about 80 and 300 Hz. This is where bass instruments "speak" and so is the most important range to have a flat response.
It is very easy to determine for yourself how important bass traps are in your room. Simply play a 100 Hz. sine wave and walk around the room. I guarantee you will find many locations in the room where the volume goes up and down dramatically. Then do the same at 150 Hz., and so forth.
--Ethan
> In the common home-recordists converted bedroom, they are less of a priority because the low frequencies bleed through the walls more than they reflect back. <
Not really. The extremely low frequencies - like below 50 Hz. or so - will pass through the walls and/or be absorbed. But most low frequency room problems are between about 80 and 300 Hz. This is where bass instruments "speak" and so is the most important range to have a flat response.
It is very easy to determine for yourself how important bass traps are in your room. Simply play a 100 Hz. sine wave and walk around the room. I guarantee you will find many locations in the room where the volume goes up and down dramatically. Then do the same at 150 Hz., and so forth.
--Ethan