The 100,000th question on this BBS about drum micing!

  • Thread starter Thread starter pisces7378
  • Start date Start date
pisces7378

pisces7378

New member
Hey guys,

I feel a bit shy about bringing this up because this question has been addressed in so many threads already, but none that I could find addressed it this clearly for me. I am going to go down and plunk down some big $$$ for some microphones for micing my drums soon. Now big money meaning of course less than $800. (No Neumann U87s I'm afraid.)

Anyway here is the set up I am contemplating going for. I just want you guys to take a look and see if I am waisting my money in one area while over dooing it in another or vice versa, or whatever...

I am as of THIS moment in time (depending on the feedback from this thread) going to buy...

1 Shure SM58 for the Kick Drum ($99)
1 Shure SM58 for the Floor Tom ($99)
1 Shure SM57 for the Snare ($79)
1 Shure SM57 for the 1st Tom ($79)
1 Shure SM57 for the 2nd Tom ($79)
1 Shure SM57 for the High Hat ($79)
1 Shure SM57 for the Ride ($79)
1 Rode NT1 Condenser for the right Overhead ($199)
1 Rode NTK Valve Condenser for the left overhead (I already own the NTK and I use it for vocals... I thought it would work at least ok for a drum overhead.)

This brings my total up to $792. That scrapes under my $800 EXTREMELY fixed budget and it covers all the areas I need miced. Now I am just wondering what you guys think? I assume that the kick drum, and the overheads are the areas that you guys might find fault with. What are some good mics for these jobs? What are some good project studio mics for recording drums. I have always heard of Shure Sm58/57 being the standard for these jobs. What do you guys use?

Also if you think that my arrangement is weird... i.e why an SM58 on the floor tom and not on the mounted toms... then by all means jump in on that as well. I am open to all suggestions. the reason I put the 58 on teh floor tome is because I do a lot of "riding" on that guy sometimes and want to give a good warm rummble type glow to that drum more so than the others. but whatever... I know very little.

What do you guys got for me?

Thanks in advance guys,

Mike
 
the sm57/58 is THE workhorse, but i think you are overworking it:D

you can do so much better for so mush less in my opinion......

overheads - pair of Marshall MXL603's $150
kick- ATM AT25PRO $ 60
snare-sm57 $80
RadioShack33-3032 on each tom $150 ($49 ea)

this will put you under $450...u can use the rest of the $$ for other issues such as good ccables,preamps,room treatment,etc....


use the NTK you already have as your room mic......
 
yeah man.....you are really overdoing it with all of those 57's and 58's.

I have played with a lot of mics on my kit...and truthfully the most convincing sounds I have gotten have been with less mics. The "3 mic" technique covered on mercenary audio is one really interesting article you should check out.

Honestly, the more I mess with it - the more I am *convinced* that no one who really knows what they are doing would want to put THAT many mics on a kit. In a way...if that's the sound you are going for then you should use synth drums - if you see what I am saying. Every mic you add makes it sound less like a drumset - from my experience.

For example...chad smith from red hot chili peppers, records a lot of his stuff with one OH LD Condensor, and a kick mic.

Anyways...what I would reccomend for you -

get a pair of the Marshall MXL 603's, use them as your overheads.
I think you will find that once you get your set sounding right....you will basically just want to use the OH mix on the snare a lot of the time. Go ahead and get 1 57...always a good mic to have - that way if you need a little more snare you can have it.

I can tell you flat out - that an SM58 is not a good kick mic. Heh...I have played for a long time to get anything decent out of it - eventually decided i had to get a real kick mic, so..the ATM25 it is.
If a 58 is all you have...sure...you can use it. but, don't buy it for that purpose. for 50 bucks more you get into a real kick mic.

If you use your NTK out in front a bit...to get some ambience..and also to pick up some more kick - i bet you could get a killer mix with that. And a sound that would truely work in a mix. Not just show off each tom's pristine miking for a drum solo ;)

So

Pair of marshall 603's - $100
1 SM57 - $80
a real kick mic, like the ATM25 - $150
then use the NTK you have.


so that puts you at around $350. And once you learn to really master the sound with those mics - you'll be a much better engineer than just "yo..clip on another 57"

If you do decide you need another mic for some weak part of the set - then you can always go buy another...but i wouldn't buy that all at once.

Esp so many 57s. yes its a versatile mic...its a workhorse...but, its like someone said already - having SO many of those in a cabinet and not having anything else is not going to be very rewarding.

I can hear what all of those 57's is going to sound like in my head right now...it's not good - run boy..run! hehe

One other thing - and...I have a feeling you might resent this, but...the Behringer ECM8000s really do have a very cool sound for drum overheads....depending on what your room is like.

At $70 for the pair...you might want to consider adding those as well - to give some variety. They take a lot more work to get a good sound out of, I would say....but....they can definately get the job done.

I know this is getting long - but, one other thought. When you have every piece of a set miked up like that...esp with mics that are all the same...like the 57 - you get into a LOT of headaches with EQ/Mixing. trying to get the panning/levels right on everything...trying to make it sound "real"

What people forget about drums is that they are an acoustic instrument. Think about how a drumset sounds to someone 20 feet back from it - it sounds like an instrument. What are a persons ears hearing? Are they really hearing 6 57s close miked on every part of the set? Nah....try to take a more realistic approach to it...let natural acoustic space do your mixing for you - instead of hours and hours of messing things up in EQ.

And save a few hundred bucks while you're at it....peace.
-Wes
 
get a nice big room with lots of 'verb, put a couple ecm8000s around, get a '57 on the snare and an akg d112 in the kick, you got yourself a great drum sound. you'll have so much cash left over, you can get a preamp, cables, signal processors, AND a hooker.
 
is the d112 like the kick mic god or something? it costs about the same as the ATM25 doesn't it?
 
ah...$220...looks impressive. I dont think I need it...well, I KNOW i dont need it...but, me want..me want. ;)
 
Abbott said:
get a nice big room with lots of 'verb, put a couple ecm8000s around, get a '57 on the snare and an akg d112 in the kick, you got yourself a great drum sound. you'll have so much cash left over, you can get a preamp, cables, signal processors, AND a hooker.
Click to expand...

I've got a Beta 52 (Mars store closing price of $132) instead of the D112, but otherwise you're describing my setup. Heck, for $200 more, do like I did and throw in a couple of V67Ms for room mics.

I'm just starting out, but this setup sounds okay so far. Micing every tom is redikkilus. The overheads capture so much of the snare, the 57 isn't even necessary. I'm going to pick up a pair of 603s, then I'm done buying mics until I know what I'm doing.
 
What about using his setup only for the signal and change the sounds with drumago ?

Greetz

Momo
 
2nd Rode NTK for stereo overheads.... dont skimp here... dont...
Audio Technica ATM 25 for Kick
Beta 57 for Snare
And as many Sm-57's as you can get after this stuff... the 4 mic setup I posted in the drum forum will do you much better than phase central hell with all those mics anyway. For real. No kidding. Try it 1st. This is your best bet.
 
2 NTKs and a good kick mic will get you a hell of a sound if you know what you are doing with them.

I think the theory of "you have to mic the snare" is kind of a bad one. Sure there are certain times you want lots of snare - or esp if you want to do a weird effect on just the snare - you will want a separate mic for it.

But don't think for a second that your overheads will not give you a great blend of snare and cymbals all by themselves.

Personally I like the attack of a good rich kick thump....but, 2 NTKs alone will give you a very useable drum sound - snare, hat, toms, cymbals and even kick that'll hit you in the chest.

That is ALL assuming that your set sounds good to start with. remember...it's one instrument - not a bunch of individual ones.
 
Alrighty then...

Hell yeah guys...

Thanks a fucking ton! That is the best answer I have gotten ever about drum mics. Most people either don't really know and they bullshit their way through... or they just say... "It depends on what kind of sound you are going for." To a greater extent the last one is true. it does depend on what kind of sound you are going for. but sometimes it also means..."I could never get a good sound either and this is what everyone tells me, so don't ask me."

Here is what I have obsorbed from this thread.

1. Overheads:
Anyway, I have read everyones posts and will take the notes I have taken to the music store. It seems that the Marshall MXL 603 is the overhead of choice. But I also heard a few rounds of applaus from you guys about my Rode NTK as an overhead. Now I am betting that 2 Marshall MXL 603 overheads would be great and have my NTK as like a room mic in front of the set to get a "listener's prospective". but that gets a bit expensive. Do you guys think that 1 Marshall MXL603 and 1 Rode NTK as overheads would sound sweet together?

2. Snare:
Shure SN57 open and shut. Maybe not micing the snare but get the Shure Sm57 for the snare if you do mic it.

3. Kick:
Either the Audio Technica ATM25 ($139.95) or the AKG D112 ($219.95). Now I liked the look of the AKB better than the Audio Technica ATM25 (no not just becasue the Audio Technica states in the name where you have to withdraw the money to pay for it). The reason I liked the AKG D112 better is because it is also intended to be used for recording a bass guitar. That is also a major concern of mine and I need as many "multiple function" mics I can find.

4. Toms:
Now the tom section is the only part of the kit that went almost un addressed. I saw the Radio Shack recomendation from Gidge but I am a top notch drummer and I think that the weakest link in most semi-pro recordings is the drum sounds. And the weakest part of the drum sound in these recordings is the toms. I do a lot w/ the toms and I want them to soun warm and fuzzy wit´h a sweet overhanging resonation. Not like Coffee cans with plastic wrap over each end. I also like to pan my toms to their position on the stereo/ physical field. When a drummer does a fill across the toms from right to left (assuming you are standing facing the drummer) then I want that stereo scope to come across in teh recording as well.

I want the ride cymbal to be panned a bit left and the high hat a bit right. I guess this can be done pretty good with the overheads being panned this way, for the ride, the high hat and to a large degree the toms. but assuming that I am just bull headed and have to mic up my toms... which mic would you use? I would probably use a middle mic for both of the mounted toms and one for the floor tom. Please remember that my floor tom is a KEY part. I ride on it quite often through a verse. I want some warm thunder to come through on that guy.

Am I just being bull headed?

Thanks guys,

Mike
 
Re: Alrighty then...

pisces7378 said:
Hell yeah guys...


4. Toms:
Now the tom section is the only part of the kit that went almost un addressed. I saw the Radio Shack recomendation from Gidge but I am a top notch drummer and I think that the weakest link in most semi-pro recordings is the drum sounds. And the weakest part of the drum sound in these recordings is the toms. I do a lot w/ the toms and I want them to soun warm and fuzzy wit´h a sweet overhanging resonation. Not like Coffee cans with plastic wrap over each end. I also like to pan my toms to their position on the stereo/ physical field. When a drummer does a fill across the toms from right to left (assuming you are standing facing the drummer) then I want that stereo scope to come across in teh recording as well.


Am I just being bull headed?

Thanks guys,

Mike
Click to expand...

Can you make more than one trip to the mic store? If so, then buy the overheads/snare/kick and go play with them for a while. If they work out, you've got money to spend on something else. If you don't like the tom sound you're getting, then go back and buy the tom mics.
 
yeah you bring up some interesting points....some very good ones...you've definately been doing your research.

Being a top notch drummer (i certainly am not)...I am sure you have a great idea of what you want out of your drum sound. Personally...I don't listen to recordings and think that the drums sound bad...I normally think drums work pretty well in most pro recordings I hear. And I guess that's just a difference in how I hear drums...for one I am only a "2nd hand" drummer....not my first love like guitar or vocals...so, it's easy for me to not want the drums to "take over".

I normally go for a sound that will be there...but blend in very nicely - as you can probably tell from my postsings on mics. So...after reading your last post - you will definately want to play with close miking...as well as more spacious approaches. Don't count anything out at this point - you are passionate about drums...find a sound that works for you.

I'll stand by the advice not to rush into buying everything at once though. As far as toms - I really don't use them...so...i won't give much of a solid opinion here. I have heard that something like the MXL603 would be an excellent tom mic. But...an SM57 would work also (maybe not quite as "warm")...

You said the 603's w/your NTK were going to get pricey...keep in mind that a 603 is cheaper than or the same cost as an SM57...which you were going to buy like 4 of - so i don't see how that's an issue. the MXL 603 can be had for 50 bucks....so in reality...if you decided you wanted one on each tom that wouldn't be out of the question.

At this point I think I've pretty much said more than I know....maybe my perspective on "how drums should sound" will at least get you thinking in a different way...lead you to something better. What it's going to come down to is finding the mic placement that works for your playing....if the floor tom is big to you, I would definately mic that. Your stereo image will be well covered by the overheads..yes. In terms of the toms - I don't know what you've played with before....from my experience panning toms across the spectrum "sounds" like a good idea - but in reality can become kind of confusing in the mix.

Oh - on the floor tom thing. One guy Jason Rubero...he posts here...his stuff is on mp3.com, he only uses 1 mic..period. Records his drumset with 1 mic. now - it isn't what you are going for I don't think...more of a spacey sound...drums are really secondary in it - however...I think he gets a great sound from 1 mic...very well balanced. He places his mic (its a rode nt1) about two feet above his right foot...gets a good kick sound...I was thinking placement like this might be interesting for you - working with the floor tom. I'm not at home right now...but when i get home there is a pretty cool article on drum recording that I will get you the link for. Another article is this:

http://www.mercenaryaudio.com/3micdrumstuf.html

talks about miking a drum set with 3 mics...and might have some useful info to you.
 
oh - btw...a 603 and an NTK is not a very good idea for overheads. At least...not in theory....you might like the sound...who knows.

But, I think the price of the 603 should make that a pretty easy call though...given previous budget.
 
Sorry man,

I was looking at the www.americanmusical.com website to see the prices and they are selling the Marshall MXL603 with the MXL2001 for $199. That is why I wasn't on the same page as you as far a sprive is concerned. Now I see that the 603 truely is about the same price as a Shure SM57. But that leads me to the question... Do you yourself have a 603? I have just never heard of a drum overhead Condensor microphone costing under $150. I figured $150 is scrapeing the bottom of the line junk already. When i set out to buy all these mics I pretty much braced myself for the blow of at least $600-$700. But the way this thread is shapping up I might get out of this only spending $460-$500. That is/would be damn sweet.

Now I hate to seem like some price tag watching, brand name shopping, "only the best" kind of guy... but how good a mic is this 603 for $79? I mean if you say it is sweet for $79 then I will at least go and check one out at the store, bring it home and see if it is cool. I do trust ya. I am just wondering if you are trying to save me a ton of money, and the end product will suffer. I am after an "as damn near close to pro" sound as one can squeeze from a project studio.

Just for the sake of arguing... what is the "next step up" in quality after this mic that I could look at and compare. I like to have as many things as possible to compare at the store. Plus it just makes me "seem" more knowledgable to the guy at the store that is looking for a sucker.

Thanks man,

Mike.

P.S. If you are not tired of this question yet then I should buy you a beer. Planning any tripps to Germany?
 
I have a set of Audio-Technica KitPak mics, and I have not had any complaints. I've been able to get a nice pop off the snare, and a good slap off the kick with the set. The set comes with 2 high tom/snare and 2 low tom/kick mics. Of course, I really only use these for toms, now, where the sound isn't all that important to me. On kick I have an AKG D-112, and on snare I usually put a Beta-57.

My perspective on overheads is any decent small diaphram condensers will do the trick. I have a pair of Audio-Technica MB3000C's that I use over the kit. I prefer to keep the overhead levels down (we have a very cymbal-heavy drummer), and concentrate a lot of the volume on the kick and snare. This is good for more heavy music (not that we're all that heavy)... I'd say for a more acoustic-type sound, you'd probably want a better pair of overheads, and concentrate the sound more on them.

Let's talk about mic technique on the overheads... Cross them, or keep one on one side, one on the other? I've had good results with both, but you can do some really great sounding stuff with the stereo image if you get them crossed in just the right way. I'm pretty impartial - anyone have a favorite miking method?

And finally, I don't know if anyone has heard it, but I love some of the drum sounds on the CD "Seven Mary Three - Rock Crown". There's some really great ambient sounds they achieved on that recording that almost evokes a senitmental feeling (from me, at least). That just goes to show what you can achieve with a great drum sound. You can really bring out the attitude or feeling on a recording with the drums.

Blah, I've said enough! :)

Rick
 
Hey, sorry about that Radio Shack mic recommendation...i dont know what i was thinking......i havent even heard in on toms.....i was just stealing the advice of someone named Harvey Gerst who recommending it on toms and we all know he doesnt know anything about mics:rolleyes:



:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
 
Hey Gidge,

Thanks for your input on this thread. You seem to be there for me a lot. I respect your input more than most people on this board.

Thanks man,

Mike

P.S. Who the hell is Harvey Gerst?
 
Das MXL603 ist wirklich ein tolles Mikrofon. Ich habe einige Lieder mit diesen Mikrofonen aufgenommen. Wenn du sie hören möchtest, kann ich die Adresse schicken.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top